How long are they super fragile?

[Jensownzoo]

Although what you said could be true, it's a balancing act... The term "smaller dose" that you use is not directly quantitative in this respect as a 'small' piece of sod could in fact have a huge and potentially lethal dose of bacterial or parasites in it just as well as it could have a small dose that would allow the chick to build up immunity, you just never know... A chick born and raised outside it going to be exposed to stuff day one, while an 'indoor' chick in a brooder isn't, I'm not against introducing reared indoor birds to nasties under semi-controlled situations but anytime you do this you run a risk...

Bio contamination can result from very small things... I was exploring some caves last year and they won't even let you bring a camera, cell phone or basically anything in the caves any more for fear of spreading 'white nose' syndrome, and they even stress that you should shower as well as clean all your clothing and shoes before visiting another cave... It doesn't take much to spread nasties... I know many chicken breeders that won't even let 'visitors' enter their coops for fear of cross contamination...

I personally prefer to keep my very young chicks in a more sterile environment until their bodies get up and running fully...

Timing is important, and I would have to do a bit of research before I would be willing to endorse the practice fully. I was shocked when I found out that they vaccinated chicks right out of the egg as basically that's when their immune systems are the least likely to generate a proper immune response...but I guess that even a small response is better than none.

Biosecurity is a little different. While you want your birds to develop immunity to the organisms in the environment that they will be spending the rest of their lives in (presumably), you don't need them to be immune to the rest of the world and it's pathogens...you want the immune system to be focused on the things that they are exposed to every day. Introducing pathogens from other sources into a flock that has no defense against them is unwise. Bats have very little, if any, defense against white nose syndrome and it is decimating their populations.

I'm not arguing with you by the way...this is a friendly discussion about differing managment techniques (being the internet, sometimes you have to state that specifically). Commercial facilities tend to operate in just the same way that you do as their birds rarely (if ever) leave their semi-sterile environs. I didn't give my 8 week old chicks a dirt clod because I kept forgetting. I've got a new batch of chicks now, so I may "experiment" to see if it makes a difference one way or the other in a few weeks.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Yes, I hope a friendly discussion sharing opinions and how we do things. Hopefully with a little why thrown in. But in my opinion most of this is opinion. And we all have different ways of doing things.

Some vaccinations, like Marek’s, need to be given as young as possible. I think they may have been experimenting with something different in the UK and maybe other places, but the best I’ve been able to determine they still use Turkey Marek’s vaccine in the US exclusively. Turkey Marek’s vaccine doesn’t stop the chicks from developing Marek’s if they are exposed, but it does usually stop the development of the tumors that cause the damage. But that Turkey Marek’s needs a week or two to develop before it starts to work. You need to prevent your chicks from coming into contact with chicken Marek’s before that vaccine has taken effect. To me that’s a good reason to give that vaccine as early as possible. With some other vaccines it is recommended to wait. I think you need to know which vaccines you are talking about before making blanket statements about vaccines.

I’m in the camp of exposing the chicks to the environment they will be living in as soon as possible. Are there risks to this approach? Of course, but I think the risks are reduced by exposing them early. They are going to come into contact with that risk sometime, I prefer them to be in the brooder where I can better observe them when they make that contact. Then you have things like Coccidiosis. If they are constantly exposed to that for two or three weeks they develop an immunity to that strain. Keeping their environment and their water clean reduces the chance of them getting sick during that period. For me that’s easier to monitor in the brooder.

I prefer strengthening their immune system as soon as possible instead of raising them in a sterile environment and then exposing them to that environment with an unprepared immune system. I feed them dirt from the run where the adults have been pooping at Day 2 or 3 in the brooder and keep adding more every few days. Tome this gets grit in their system, whether they need it or not, it gets any probiotics the adults have in their system, and it gets them working to develop flock immunities. If I have a broody hen raise the chicks, they start this process Day 1.

 

[DreamsInPink]

Thank you all for the great information. It's definitely a lot to process. There's so much to learn with chickens. I do not have chickens, other than the chicks, so they wouldn't be getting anything helpful from other chickens.... though I could bring in a clump of dirt and grass for them to peck at. I have also been giving them grit. I have a treat block and meal worms I'm intending on giving them a tiny bit of, just so they hold me in high regard.

LOL

As far as their health so far, they seem just fine. I try to keep an eye on their waste, but sometimes that's difficult with 11 little ones running around in there. I've noticed differences though.. some more watery, some more solid.... are some differences normal? Ranging from chick to chick?

 

[Jensownzoo]

Some vaccinations, like Marek’s, need to be given as young as possible. I think they may have been experimenting with something different in the UK and maybe other places, but the best I’ve been able to determine they still use Turkey Marek’s vaccine in the US exclusively. Turkey Marek’s vaccine doesn’t stop the chicks from developing Marek’s if they are exposed, but it does usually stop the development of the tumors that cause the damage. But that Turkey Marek’s needs a week or two to develop before it starts to work. You need to prevent your chicks from coming into contact with chicken Marek’s before that vaccine has taken effect. To me that’s a good reason to give that vaccine as early as possible. With some other vaccines it is recommended to wait. I think you need to know which vaccines you are talking about before making blanket statements about vaccines.

I did some research regarding Marek's vaccines a few weeks or so ago because I wanted to assess if administering the vaccine in older chicks would be worth it (I didn't have my first flock vaccinated and was considering doing so). The most common vaccines used nowadays is a modified live version of the virulent MDV, with or without the added herpesvirus of turkeys (HVT) added. There is also an avirulent strain of MDK that can be used in vaccine manufacture.

There are a lot of different ways to make vaccines, but the body mostly reacts to them in the same fashion--just the different types can affect the strength of the response and timing of protective immunity (if developed). My blanket statement was indeed simplified, but in general you can provoke a general immune response that can be protective within a week or two...it takes longer for the specific response to be generated as the body had to make those specialized cells from scratch which then have to start pumping out those MDV/HVT specific antibodies in significant numbers. So, there is initially a rise in one type of immunoglobulin (non-specific immunity) and after a delay (usually a few weeks) there is a rise in the second type (specific immunity) as measured by titers.

I was surprised that they vaccinated on day one, but looking at the disease itself, it does start affecting chicks as early as 3-4 weeks old so by vaccinating that early the specific immunity is being sought. In mammals, the just-born get their immunity from ingestion of colostrum. If you give vaccines too early, all you're doing is reducing the protection because the maternal antibodies will be consumed. Which is why we delay giving vaccines to human babies, puppies, kittens, etc.. Birds get some antibodies from the hen when the egg is formed, but not to the degree that mammals do. I had hadn't had these facts in mind when I was initially surprised, but it does make sense now. Actually it makes even more sense to vaccinate in-egg but I don't think a lot of hatcheries do that.

I prefer strengthening their immune system as soon as possible instead of raising them in a sterile environment

This is my preference too, although I go about it a little differently. I prefer to make sure that they are over hatching/shipping/etc. stress first, then establish a good intestinal microbiota via probiotics, THEN start challenging their immune system to build it up against the things that they are going to routinely come in contact with. So, I'd probably toss them that dirt clod between 2-3 weeks old, ensuring them enough time for proper immunity to develop.

 

[DreamsInPink]

@Jensownzoo

I bought medicated crumbles and the bag says it has pre and probiotics in it... do I need additional?

My chicks are 2 weeks old today. I'm considering a clump of dirt and grass for them... what is your opinion?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Thanks for the update on the new Marek’s vaccine. It had not been that long since I checked but obviously a while.

 

[Jensownzoo]

Thanks for the update on the new Marek’s vaccine. It had not been that long since I checked but obviously a while.

It took some digging to find that info actually. You're welcome.

What I would really like to see in the Sataes is that Salmonella vaccine they use in Europe...it allows eggs to be stored in cabinets instead of in the fridge!

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is hard to find accurate updated information. I even emailed some of the hatcheries to ask them what they were using but got no response. Probably should have called.

Did you happen to see how effective that new vaccine is? I seem to remember there were some questions about that, maybe it wasn’t 100%. That may be why some are still mixing in the Turkey virus.

 

[Jensownzoo]

No I didn't see that info. I basically tracked down which manufacturer's were making it, then went to their websites. If I couldn't find the kind of detailed info that I wanted (some were basically ads) then I searched the name on drugs.com, which has a surprising amount of information. I could have read the FDA bulletins from when they were approved for use, but those are a pita.

 

[DreamsInPink]

@Jensownzoo

I bought medicated crumbles and the bag says it has pre and probiotics in it... do I need additional?

My chicks are 2 weeks old today. I'm considering a clump of dirt and grass for them... what is your opinion?

Just reposting this... it kind got skipped over I think.