how many breeding and generations before you can say your chickns are heritage?

[lucky123]

The bottom line is, a hatchery rir and barred rock looks nothing like a heritage bird. So, if you want a bird that actually looks like the breed is suppose to, it won't be a hatchery bird.. I fully agree with Fred, Matt and Illa on their definition of a heritage bird.

 

[gallorojo]

IMO, the bottom line is, if the bird meets the SOP, breeds true, meets the ALBC definition, THAN THE SOURCE DOES NOT MATTER. PERIOD. All the endless hatchery bashing gets really old. Yes, you can't realistically get Standard bred birds of many breeds from hatcheries, however, in some other breeds, you definitely CAN. I feel like there is an opinion that a hatchery bird, or those derived from, can never be "heritage", whatever that means. As long as they meet the SOP, and the ALBC definition, sure they are "heritage". Although the term is basically meaningless anymore. As to the original question, I don't even understand really what is being asked? If you buy a
bird from a hatchery that meets the SOP and the ALBC, it would be Heritage immediately, although it would be nice to prove it breeds true to type, so, as many generations as needed to prove to yourself it breeds true. I personally do not care for the concept that the source of the birds determines in any way whether or not it's Heritage. What matters is the SOP.

Realistically, I know many people equate American class breeds like Rocks and Reds with the term Heritage, and those are typically bad enough from most hatcheries to be essentially another breed. I have seen some hatchery RIR that could be considered close to the SOP, Cackle has some decent birds,so does Sandhill, that are not production reds. The term Heritage if we are going to use it at all, should not be limited to the American class breeds. What about the many older, foundational breeds that are Heritage and need breeders as well? For some breeds, hatcheries may be the only option. So, again, source does not matter. Meeting the SOP is everything.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Actually, I never posted an opinion on what is or what isn't a heritage bird. I merely posted the definition from ALBC definition. I have no idea, as I said, as to whether their definition is authoritative. With that said....

Here is what I do believe. I won't talk about someone else's animal. We bred more than a few beagles over the years, and a few chickens along the way. Robert Blosi recommend to always start with the very best birds you can. He has stated many times that some birds simply couldn't be bred up to SOP even if you took 8-10 generations of trying. Again, I have no idea if a heritage bird must also be SOP, close to SOP, represent SOP, etc. I only know that I can look at 100 Beagles and pick the ONE that typically outshines the rest. A dog like that couldn't be "bred up" out of ordinary stock if you tried for 10 years.

I've got some Barred Rocks and have looked at hundred and hundreds of Barred Rocks photos posted here on BYC, most of them, like my own, hatchery stock. Again, I have no idea if the ALBC would consider my BR to be heritage. I certainly do not. They matured very quickly, began laying at 22 weeks which is hardly slow developing. My avatar is one of my very best hatchery Barred Rocks. Yet? Really? Whenever I see photos (below) here of real, breeder Barred Rocks, well.... let's just say it is pretty darn easy to see the difference. My hatchery stock is virtually a different bird.



Apologies for ripping the photos.

 

[cubalaya]

3. Long, productive outdoor lifespan. Heritage Chicken must have the genetic ability to live a long, vigorous life and thrive in the rigors of pasture-based, outdoor production systems. Breeding hens should be productive for 5-7 years and roosters for 3-5 years.



The show people are going to tell you that your birds are too far from the SOP. The SOP is a guideline to shoot for while preserving the utility and hardiness of your birds. This can't be proven in a heated coup with artificial light. If you start with 50 hatchery birds and let mother nature cull for you. Then carefully select for size and whatever else is lacking. You'll probably end up with 4-5 birds which will be a lot closer to "Heritage" than a trio of "show quality" birds from a "closed flock". After 2-3 generations you will be on you way to having truely heritage birds.

Breeds can't be preserved by looks alone. A Beagle that lives in a fenced yard and is used as an agility dog, no matter how good it does, isn't a real Beagle if it won't run rabbits and ONLY rabbits. It will look pretty and probably even have the Beagle ear stink. But it stops being a "heritage" Beagle when it is no longer hunts. It's just another dog who should be spayed/neutered. Certain traits need constant selection. It doesn't take very long to keep the look but lose the real part of a breed.

As far as the OP's question: You have a good start. Don't forget about these REAL traits that kept these birds around this long. I would rather have hardy birds with a higher than SOP tail set, than show birds that need heat.

delawares are heritage and i agree totally including the beagle part. i raise akc beagles and if they dont run rabbits, they dont get registered.

 

[tadkerson]

Going back to the ALBC. If you want to use their definition the birds must meet the SOP. If the bird must be SQ to be considered a heritage breed you will have very few birds that fill the bill. You are once again getting into the area that is subjective. The male in the picture looks like a rhode island red the female does not. A production red and a rhode island red are not the same thing.

If a person wants to go by the definition of the ALBC and if the male in the picture is not a heritage breed, then his parents and his grandparents are not a heritage breed. There would not be any heritage breeds because anybody that breeds birds knows that you have to cull birds that do not meet the standard; which really means they will not score very high by a judge.

If a male ( no matter how he scores from a judge) does not produce every male offspring just like himself, you can not consider him a heritage breed. He does not produce offspring just like himself.

So if you cross the perfect female with the perfect male and they produce any imperfect young the parents are not a heritage bred because they do not breed true- the offspring do not meet the standard.


A heritage breed must have certain hereditary characteristics that are passed down from generation to generation. The characteristics must be found in the breed- these characteristics are defined in the SOP. If a bird is disqualified at a meet, it does not meet the SOP. If a bird gets a 5th place then it meets the SOP. As long as a bird is not disqualified, it has met the standard. If a bird came from a closed, inbred heritage line and is disqualified at a meet- does that mean his parents and grand parents are not a heritage breed. No it does not.

If it looks like a Rhode Island Red ( meets the SOP) and the parents and grand parents looked like rhode island red- its a heritage breed.

I really doubt if the male rhode island red in the picture would be disqualified at a meet. He may only score a ___ place but he still meets the standard. If you do not think he is a heritage breed then that makes the laney line not a heritage line because he does not meet the SOP.

Go check the conservancy page that I posted earlier- they indicated that there were lots of hatcheries that could sell heritage breeds.

http://albc-usa.org/heritagechicken/producers.html

They suggest you communicate with the hatcheries- if hatcheries do not have heritage breeds they would not post the list.

This whole heritage breed thing is mostly subjective concerning the SOP- one thing that is objective is the number of generations that one has been breeding the birds. You can count the generations. The number of spikes on a comb or the number of toes on a bird is objective.


Tim


P.S. My point about the hatcheries is that if the birds have the correct phenotype, general body shape, and no disqualifying faults, they would be considered a heritage breed. People put toooooooooooo much emphasis on the SOP and the perfection part of the SOP. I understand why the conservancy used the SOP- it is a standard but I also believe a bird can meet the standard and not be a perfect example of the breed. The conservancy did not want to write a standard for each breed so it was easy to use the SOP.

The rhode island red is a heritage breed. The individuals that raise SQ birds are not the only individuals that have heritage Rhode Island red.

I do believe if a person wants to sell chicks or eggs as heritage they should pick a few birds from their flock and enter the birds in a show ( not a county fair but a regular adult meet) and have the birds judged. This should be done at least three years in a row. If none of the birds in the three years is disqualified, the person can sell their birds as heritage. I also believe that a male and female representative of the flock should also be judged every year to maintain the heritage status. This is the minimum a person should do to validate the birds as heritage.

This shows that the person knows the SOP, their birds meet the SOP and this also takes into account the hereditary aspect of the definition. I think the different poultry clubs could issue a certificate that would validate the breeder as a heritage breeder each year.This would add credence to the breeders claims and give the buyer some assurance that the birds are heritage. A poultry judge could sign the certificate and also a representative of the club.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Going back to the ALBC. If you want to use their definition the birds must meet the SOP.


A heritage breed must have certain hereditary characteristics that are passed down from generation to generation. The characteristics must be found in the breed- these characteristics are defined in the SOP. If a bird is disqualified at a meet, it does not meet the SOP. If a bird gets a 5th place then it meets the SOP. As long as a bird is not disqualified, it has met the standard. If a bird came from a closed, inbred heritage line and is disqualified at a meet- does that mean his parents and grand parents are not a heritage breed. No it does not.

Go check the conservancy page that I posted earlier- they indicated that there were lots of hatcheries that could sell heritage breeds.

http://albc-usa.org/heritagechicken/producers.html

They suggest you communicate with the hatcheries- if hatcheries do not have heritage breeds they would not post the list.

This whole heritage breed thing is mostly subjective concerning the SOP- one thing that is objective is the number of generations that one has been breeding the birds. You can count the generations. The number of spikes on a comb or the number of toes on a bird is objective.


Tim

Tim, great post. Very helpful. Very helpful in pointing out that a bird that gets disqualified is likely not SOP, but a bird that finishes in 6th place, with lots of faults, is still SOP, perhaps just not the greatest, faultless example of the breed. I know that judging is still subjective, to a large degree, but still your post very helpful.

As for the ALBC listing hatcheries, it seems to me that they listed virtually all the retail hatcheries. I'm not sure this was a ringing endorsement of those hatcheries actually having much that closely resembles what the ALBC themselves wishes to accomplish in trying to set a standard for heritage birds. In fact, by saying "call these hatcheries and ask them if they have heritage birds" is a rather huge loophole. Can't you just imagine the ordering clerk who answers the phone on the other end, "Why yes, of course." she exclaims joyfully, "We have beautiful heritage Barred Rocks and Rhode Island Reds". I am not an anti-hatchery snob. In no way. But I am soberly realistic about what one gets from any of them I've ever tried.

 

[Oregon Blues]

[[[[.......Yesterday I bought 13 heritage bred chickens, 8 RIRs.....]]]]]

Killyn, if you want to change your flock over to nice quality purebreds, it is easy enough to do.

If those 8 RIR's are good quality, put them into a separate pen and only hatch their eggs. If that is straight run and you got 4 hens, they will each lay 200-300 eggs every year. Hatch as many as you want. You could have 800 nice purebred chicks at the end of their first laying season if you hatch every egg they lay.

Then keep your production reds. Collect and eat the eggs. Don't hatch any of their eggs. As those hens get old, replace them with purebred chicks out of your purebred pen. Mark them so you know which ones they are. Eventually, every RIR on your place will be nice purebred.

You can do the same with the Delawares. But you will have to purchase a couple of quality hens for that Cochin.

 

[Oregon Blues]

I see the term "heritage" as without much value because it doesn't have a universally agreed upon definition.

About the hatchery chicks: The SOP describes what the purebred should look like. If a chick from a hatchery doesn't look anything like the SOP, odds are very good that the chick is not a purebred.

If it is not a purebred, you can't honestly call it a "breed" and if it is not a "breed" then it can not be a heritage breed by any definition I've seen used. "Heritage" breeds are pretty well generally agreed to be purebred, even if not much else is agreed upon.

 

[kellyn]

Thanks for all the definitions. I read em all. Sorry I didt get back on here sooner, I wasn't notified that anyone even replied.

Haha, I think the APA would laugh at me if they saw the quality of my chickens... heh, heh.

Aaand I don't think any of my chicks are that good either. The BC Rooster is pretty, but man oh man, is he stupid! Chasing a hen earlier, and he triped over something in the coop and landed beak first, lol!

I would like to improve a breed, but I'm not sure how.

But as they say; with age comes experience. Don't have much of either. Just 6 years of having chickens and being around them over ten.

I may just get some birds from Cackle Hatchery, but I don't think they sell sexed cochins. But I know they have them. I haven't much luck finding any breeders in or close to florida with cochin chicks or eggs they'd sell me.

I'll check all of the links y'all posted. I wanna learn as much about poultry gentics as I can, for that is the field I would like to work in.

Just had an idea... perhapse if I found 2 great hatcheries with heritage breeds I could buy st. Run from each an hopefully get a few nice breeders out of them and have two sets of breeders. And I do need to find out about the APA standard of perfections, etc.

But before I can do anything like that, I gotta downsize my mini arm y of 65 chickens..

Oh and what I meant by heritage was non hatchery almost or good show quality birds...

 

[Shireshome]

hello~ this is just a simple question I have about breeding my chickens. Most of my chickens were from hatcherys except for just a few. Mainly Ideal Poultry Breeding Farms.
Yesterday I bought 13 heritage bred chickens, 8 RIRs and 4 delawares (all 13 are chicks) as well as an adult buff cochin rooster.
I'd like to breed heritage chickens, but I don't wanna sell all my 60+ hens to do it. I'm attached to them. Sooo, i'd like to breed them and through several generations say I have heritage chickens.
I would also love to know the APA standard for Rhode Island Reds, Americaunas, Delawares, and Barred Rocks and Buff cochins.
I know a lot about chickens, but next to nothing on breeding... so if anyone knows anything, i'd love to know!
Please excuse my mistakes in writing... I'll try and fix them later.it's kinda hard to wrie on a cell phone in a moving vehicle.

I think your best bet would be to pick one or two of your breeds and work exclusively with them. It is really hard to breed for APA with great lines much less trying to do it with hatchery stock. If you are reeeealy wanting to stick with the birds you have then consider purchasing at least some pure stock to help get going other wise you will look like this

And just enjoy the other breeds you have. I don't think it's necessary to breed all of your 60 birds to APAS. Even long time breeders would tell you that would been nearly impossible! I think the key here is prioritize. Good luck.