how many breeding and generations before you can say your chickns are heritage?

[Illia]

Personally I like most follow the ALBC definition of heritage, which, is REALLY hard to achieve with hatchery stock RIR's and Ameraucanas considering A) hatchery Ameraucanas aren't real, they're mutts B) Ameraucanas weren't accepted before the 60's and C) Rhode Island Reds from hatcheries have been bred so strictly for production, so far from the dual purpose type standard, I'd say there is little chance of breeding back using purely production/hatchery stock. Sorry.

If you want to know the standard for breeds though, and you want to be serious, - I highly recommend purchasing yourself a copy of the American Standard of Perfection.

Same goes for their Barred Rocks. Extremely popular for layer/pets, so they're far from the enormous birds with square bodies you'd see at a farm who has truly old, heritage lineage. And yes, the oldest lineage out there DOES tend to follow the SOP.

Breeds of chickens these days were bred and created based out on their SOP and economic guidelines, not to be a laying hen that resembles a blurry out-dated icon of the breed or color.

 

[Chris09]

hello~ this is just a simple question I have about breeding my chickens. Most of my chickens were from hatcherys except for just a few. Mainly Ideal Poultry Breeding Farms.
Yesterday I bought 13 heritage bred chickens, 8 RIRs and 4 delawares (all 13 are chicks) as well as an adult buff cochin rooster.
I'd like to breed heritage chickens, but I don't wanna sell all my 60+ hens to do it. I'm attached to them. Sooo, i'd like to breed them and through several generations say I have heritage chickens.
I would also love to know the APA standard for Rhode Island Reds, Americaunas, Delawares, and Barred Rocks and Buff cochins.
I know a lot about chickens, but next to nothing on breeding... so if anyone knows anything, i'd love to know!
Please excuse my mistakes in writing... I'll try and fix them later.it's kinda hard to wrie on a cell phone in a moving vehicle.

How are you using the word, "Heritage" ?
Are you referring to a breed of poultry that meets a particular date in time or are you referring to a breed of poultry that meets the American Standard of Perfection (Standard Bred)


Chris

 

[EweSheep]

2x

Personally I like most follow the ALBC definition of heritage, which, is REALLY hard to achieve with hatchery stock RIR's and Ameraucanas considering A) hatchery Ameraucanas aren't real, they're mutts B) Ameraucanas weren't accepted before the 60's and C) Rhode Island Reds from hatcheries have been bred so strictly for production, so far from the dual purpose type standard, I'd say there is little chance of breeding back using purely production/hatchery stock. Sorry.

If you want to know the standard for breeds though, and you want to be serious, - I highly recommend purchasing yourself a copy of the American Standard of Perfection.

Same goes for their Barred Rocks. Extremely popular for layer/pets, so they're far from the enormous birds with square bodies you'd see at a farm who has truly old, heritage lineage. And yes, the oldest lineage out there DOES tend to follow the SOP.

Breeds of chickens these days were bred and created based out on their SOP and economic guidelines, not to be a laying hen that resembles a blurry out-dated icon of the breed or color.

 

[NYREDS]

Exactly my point. Del's weren't accepted until 1952, but people get all upset and come up with reason's like "They should still be considered, because what am I gonna tell my customers." Most of these same people aren't free ranging, live in town, and still want to sell "Heritage Delaware eggs". I agree they are a breed worth preserving, but not Heritage. People think any bird that isn't a CX or a Golden Comet should be considered Heritage because the term sounds neat. These are still pure breeds, just not heritage.

I agree with your first post. Heritage is becoming about as useful a term as show quality as it is being popularly applied.
As to Delawares 1952 sounds like mid-20th century to me & I would have no problem considering them a Heritage Breed. Also, I haven't seen anywhere that requires birds be free-ranged to be considered Heritage.

 

[tadkerson]

You can purchase heritage breeds at a hatchery( at least according to the conservancy) . See the following link.

http://albc-usa.org/heritagechicken/producers.html

I think that the heritage label is just another way a person can say my chicken is better than your chicken. People like to take advantage of labels so they can sell their stock at a higher price. It usually boils down to a bunch of !@#$%^^.

I do think the SOP serves a valuable purpose for defining a breed. The only problem I see with the SOP is that it is subjective- the judge makes a decision based upon her/his judgment. I have been to too many competitions where the judges make a call based upon their judgment. Judgment is subjective and varies with the judge. In the SOP, the judge bases his/her judgment upon their interpretation of a word. Take for example the word broad that is in many descriptions of the body types of chickens. What does broad mean? There is no fixed objective measurement to determine if the bird is broad or not. It can not be measured objectively because there is no measurement given in the standard. The judge determines if it is broad or something close to broad. The judge then deducts points for the judgment. The only thing that makes a bird not a breed is a serious disqualification, for example, wrong leg color.

From what I can gather from the two previous posts, the male in the picture of my first post is not a Rhode Island Red. Is their a difference in a heritage rhode island red and a rhode island red?
If my bird was not a rhode island red, then what is it- a hybrid of some kind?

The great grand parents of the bird in the picture were purchased from Cackle Hatchery which happens to be on the conservancy list.

Tim

 

[Blaineiac]

I agree with your first post. Heritage is becoming about as useful a term as show quality as it is being popularly applied.
As to Delawares 1952 sounds like mid-20th century to me & I would have no problem considering them a Heritage Breed. Also, I haven't seen anywhere that requires birds be free-ranged to be considered Heritage.

3. Long, productive outdoor lifespan. Heritage Chicken must have the genetic ability to live a long, vigorous life and thrive in the rigors of pasture-based, outdoor production systems. Breeding hens should be productive for 5-7 years and roosters for 3-5 years.



The show people are going to tell you that your birds are too far from the SOP. The SOP is a guideline to shoot for while preserving the utility and hardiness of your birds. This can't be proven in a heated coup with artificial light. If you start with 50 hatchery birds and let mother nature cull for you. Then carefully select for size and whatever else is lacking. You'll probably end up with 4-5 birds which will be a lot closer to "Heritage" than a trio of "show quality" birds from a "closed flock". After 2-3 generations you will be on you way to having truely heritage birds.

Breeds can't be preserved by looks alone. A Beagle that lives in a fenced yard and is used as an agility dog, no matter how good it does, isn't a real Beagle if it won't run rabbits and ONLY rabbits. It will look pretty and probably even have the Beagle ear stink. But it stops being a "heritage" Beagle when it is no longer hunts. It's just another dog who should be spayed/neutered. Certain traits need constant selection. It doesn't take very long to keep the look but lose the real part of a breed.

As far as the OP's question: You have a good start. Don't forget about these REAL traits that kept these birds around this long. I would rather have hardy birds with a higher than SOP tail set, than show birds that need heat.

 

[Illia]

Okay I'm sorry but this is where we just start splitting hairs and running in circles.

Not all birds bred right to the SOP are completely unable to still be a good foraging, dual purpose, long lived, and/or production laying bird. Show chickens are in fact different from show dogs. (In terms of how they're bred, and how they differ from pet quality)

That said I don't think all show birds are great, yes, LOADS of people who breed for exhibition do indeed keep them in small dirt runs, cages, etc and loads of strains suffer from ability to lay well or even breed well - But not all. Same for people who breed for hardiness, production, dual purpose, etc - Not all breed just for that trait and leave out show traits.

There are very very few breeds out there that were developed just to look pretty, even the very useful ones were in fact put in as a breed with its own standard for a reason, and having that standard for good purpose. Sure, a tail a little higher than norm isn't to fret about but exact super show quality birds are rare anyway. As long as your bird would do decently in a show I think that's what matters. If it doesn't, what is the point of calling it by the breed and color it is claimed to be, but doesn't conform to?

So, now this is just my opinion, but if someone wanted to get a dual purpose breed and breed it for production traits in main focus, making for a bird with the weight less than the SOP asks, or less than 20% from what the SOP asks, what's the point in using that breed or calling it such breed? The original breed was meant to be dual purpose, not production laying. It was meant to be so heavy, so you can actually eat it and enjoy what you get from it, too.

So that said, honestly, whatever "heritage" definition you use, Rhode Island Reds for example were originally meant to be dual purpose birds, not today's common layer. I'd imagine a true RIR breeder would want to butcher a rooster of theirs and see it much meatier and bigger than, say, an Araucana of mine. Because he and the breeders before him bred it to be so. But sadly, I've had people's extra red roosters they didn't want, and, they were skinnier than my Araucanas. And Araucanas by SOP should weigh no more than 6 lbs.

 

[CluckyJay]

SUPER awesome post Tad! SO very helpful-I am gonna research further on this!

 

[lucky123]

 

[lucky123]

Here is a laney line cockeral rir, and a production red sold as eggs from a heritage rir. This production red weighs 4ib's at the most. The cockeral also doesn't have good type. I don't think you could take these birds and five generation later have a heritage rir, even with good culling.