how much space per chicken

[Not Quite]

Here's a little more something I knocked out way back, 07/30/09. It might help in the discussion at hand.....

"How "big" in the run? 87.12 sq ft per bird as a minimum is ideal. {{ there it is again!}}
With this much space the earth itself will absorb much of the impact of their droppings and excavating.

Actually the number of 500 birds per acre, or 87.12 square feet per bird, is not entirely correct.

I am a professional pastured poultry operator, as are a few of my friends. A more correct answer would be 500 birds per acre per week, or 87.12 square feet per bird per week. If the birds are not moved to a new patch of ground within a week, then the field will begin to show signs of severe damage. Furthermore, it is not wise to ever double back to the same patch of ground within the same year due to pathogens,

 

[Davaroo]

Actually the number of 500 birds per acre, or 87.12 square feet per bird, is not entirely correct.

I am a professional pastured poultry operator, as are a few of my friends. A more correct answer would be 500 birds per acre per week, or 87.12 square feet per bird per week. If the birds are not moved to a new patch of ground within a week, then the field will begin to show signs of severe damage. Furthermore, it is not wise to ever double back to the same patch of ground within the same year due to pathogens,

Hey, thanks for your input! Nice first post.

That works for me. This original number, 87.12 sq ft was indeed used under what we might today call a rotating paddock or 'pasture' rearing scheme. In later comments through the years, I've re-thought that number as lacking and subsequently rounded it UP to 100 sq ft per bird.

Before I moved to a home without chickens, I had over 600sq. ft/ bird and still saw that rotating them between separate paddocks would be wise. In fact, you probably know that this is a common feature of most permaculture schemes (do they still call it "permaculture?")
I probably exceeded the space most hobbyists would ever consider, in fact. Many will say "free-ranging," offers the best plan, but it lacks one key feature: control. These birds give us their best when we manage them, not when we allow them to run amok as unfettered spirits.
.
The truth is most backyard chickeneers don't employ rotation of ANY kind, opting instead for permanent siting. Its probably safest to say that 600 sq ft would be insufficient, in the long term, considering this.

But we need a place from which to start, since this discussion was focused on allowed space. I've used the example of 500/acre from the early range farmers for two reasons...
a. It gave us a number we could hinge on - people expect that. They want a fact, a piece of information they can build upon.
b. It was familiar to me - before the internet, I had the old books from men like John Robinson and Charles Weeks.

Many of the men of a hundred years ago did rotate from section to section on an annual basis, usually in trimesters. As you note this alows the ground to sweeten, the grass to regrow and the diseases of overcrowding to dispel. And we have to admit that it is a rather different thing to pasture and rotate, when compared to what most hobbyists do - a better thing, in my opinion - but definitely different.
Not all men did it back in the day, however, being driven by somewhat different forces than we envision today. Yet, they still did better than most today might manage. Photos of the period bear this out.

Are you using some sort of movable housing, a la Joel Salatin, or have you come up with a another wrinkle?

 

[mike001]

There is only one thing left to do! Surround my ten acres with fences and automated machine pistol turrets and rotate my 15 chickens between 52 carefully sectioned plots on my new mega farm. Of course I will have to demonlish my house and outbuildings as they are in the way and create a mobile 150 square foot coop (I will buy and repurpose an old Sheridan tank for this) but those are trivial details!

Fearing pathogens, I will wear a hazmat suit. I would have my wife, children and dog wear them also, but I will have to kick them out and have them live on a trailer by the side of the road because there is no room for them and my 15 chickens. Flies and other insectile pests will be taken out by roving clouds of nano-disassemblers controlled by a centralized AI core powered by recycled chicken manure.

Oh, I was at the local farm store yesterday and I told the chicken farmer who was selling home farmed eggs that the internet says you need 4 or 5 square feet per chicken of coop space. He looked at me like I had three heads and then he laughed. He actually laughed. Then he shook his head and said, "The internet" and sighed.

So of course I had him killed by my chicken ninjas. How dare he?!?!

 

[Davaroo]

Quote: Exactly - and be quick about it before the zombies get here!


Quote: He was right.

 

[MrsSerfesME]

Way too funny mike001, I love the "nano-disassemblers" part.

Honestly I am enjoying this discussion that has been going on regarding the space needed per chicken. I am a newbie and my husband and I were, again, discussing coop and run design and size last night so it's good to be able here different sides of the discussions on what is best for chickens. I am learning a lot from both of you, even though you seem to disagree with each other, you both are making valid points about things.

My question is, if you have a smaller space, say a one or two acre property that you want to raise chickens, in my case we will probably end up in the 6-12 chickens range, if I am keeping on top of cleaning up after my chickens, giving them time each down to roam my yard or even if I make them a mobile coop/run and can move them to different parts, can it work without needing 87.12 sq ft per chicken?

From what I am reading, the reasoning behind this math and making sure you only keep the chickens in one area of your property for so long before moving them to another part and making sure not to put them on the same part twice in one year seems to apply more to bigger operations who do not have the time to go out and rake up or scoop up the chicken poop from the yard? If you are only raising a few backyard chickens and can go out and do poop duty every day or every other day and clean their coop once a week or more if needed, then can't it work if you are using the 4 and 10 rule or the 5 and 15 rule? Obviously the more room any animals have is better, but if you can keep them clean, happy, healthy and they are getting their exercise and enrichment, isn't that what is most important?

I mean I live in Maine and there are a lot of people who raise backyard chickens, ducks, geese, goats, etc. and I have driven by larger properties with large spaces for their animals that look disgusting, and also driven by regular sized properties with maybe and acre or two raising those same animals and their animal's pen looks immaculate and the animals look clean and healthy. So I guess another part to throw into how much space you need per chicken, is how often are you able to go and clean up after them? Obviously there is a point when it's too small no matter how often you clean up after them, but there must be a balance there where you do not have have 300 acres of property for 10 chickens or there wouldn't be so many people raising perfectly healthy, happy chickens in the suburbs, right?

There is only one thing left to do! Surround my ten acres with fences and automated machine pistol turrets and rotate my 15 chickens between 52 carefully sectioned plots on my new mega farm. Of course I will have to demonlish my house and outbuildings as they are in the way and create a mobile 150 square foot coop (I will buy and repurpose an old Sheridan tank for this) but those are trivial details!

Fearing pathogens, I will wear a hazmat suit. I would have my wife, children and dog wear them also, but I will have to kick them out and have them live on a trailer by the side of the road because there is no room for them and my 15 chickens. Flies and other insectile pests will be taken out by roving clouds of nano-disassemblers controlled by a centralized AI core powered by recycled chicken manure.

Oh, I was at the local farm store yesterday and I told the chicken farmer who was selling home farmed eggs that the internet says you need 4 or 5 square feet per chicken of coop space. He looked at me like I had three heads and then he laughed. He actually laughed. Then he shook his head and said, "The internet" and sighed.

So of course I had him killed by my chicken ninjas. How dare he?!?!

 

[Davaroo]

Msserfesme... That summarizes the point mike has made all along
Chickens are highly adaptable and dont care if they live in their own funk-mess, or not.
We have learned over time that it is best if they don't, for a host of reasons. This suits our needs more than theirs.
But I have yet to hear them complain, one way or the other..... Which puts the burden on us.

 

[MrsSerfesME]

Davaroo, I don't want my chickens to live in their mess, and neither does mike001. I think it suits THEIR needs to not live in their mess, as well as ours because it's unsanitary and unhealthy for them, weather they can adapt to it or not. When they are sick because they live in unsanitary conditions, that's them complaining. We are not talking about leaving our chickens in unsanitary conditions, though. If they are regularly cleaned and have enough space to comfortably move around and not be at each others throats, as well as time outside of their run or coop to explore the yard, then they are not crowded nor are they living in their filth.

 

[mike001]

Davaroo, I don't want my chickens to live in their mess, and neither does mike001. I think it suits THEIR needs to not live in their mess, as well as ours because it's unsanitary and unhealthy for them, weather they can adapt to it or not. When they are sick because they live in unsanitary conditions, that's them complaining. We are not talking about leaving our chickens in unsanitary conditions, though. If they are regularly cleaned and have enough space to comfortably move around and not be at each others throats, as well as time outside of their run or coop to explore the yard, then they are not crowded nor are they living in their filth.

Yes!

See with large scale operations this sort of thing is not practical. Cleaning up after 100 chickens is not exactly fun. 200? Forget it. So you have to manage them somehow. But 10 chickens? Even 20 chickens? It is practical. Cleaning out a 300 square foot coop every week? You'll want to die in a month. A 50 square foot coop? 30? It's so easy it's not worth talking about.

Also, if you don't want a bare batch of earth on your land, then you want to listen to davaroo. But some people don't mind it. I actually like it. I have 10 acres of grass and hay, it's a nice "farmy" look.

You can tell when chickens are happy. They act a certain way. The run around, hop around, chest bump each other, act silly, etc. If they have room to do these things, you're good, or so I think.

 

[MrsSerfesME]

Yes!

See with large scale operations this sort of thing is not practical. Cleaning up after 100 chickens is not exactly fun. 200? Forget it. So you have to manage them somehow. But 10 chickens? Even 20 chickens? It is practical. Cleaning out a 300 square foot coop every week? You'll want to die in a month. A 50 square foot coop? 30? It's so easy it's not worth talking about.

Also, if you don't want a bare batch of earth on your land, then you want to listen to davaroo. But some people don't mind it. I actually like it. I have 10 acres of grass and hay, it's a nice "farmy" look.

You can tell when chickens are happy. They act a certain way. The run around, hop around, chest bump each other, act silly, etc. If they have room to do these things, you're good, or so I think.

Personally I have parts of my property which would be perfectly fine for chicken to create bare earth on because they are not the middle of my lawn and it's mean less yard to mow. They are also areas with great drainage so the chickens won't be standing in mud when it rains. So I'm with you mike001! I don't plan to be raising 100 or 200 chickens any time, ever.

 

[Not Quite]

But we need a place from which to start, since this discussion was focused on allowed space. I've used the example of 500/acre from the early range farmers for two reasons...
a. It gave us a number we could hinge on - people expect that. They want a fact, a piece of information they can build upon.
b. It was familiar to me - before the internet, I had the old books from men like John Robinson and Charles Weeks.

Many of the men of a hundred years ago did rotate from section to section on an annual basis, usually in trimesters. As you note this alows the ground to sweeten, the grass to regrow and the diseases of overcrowding to dispel. And we have to admit that it is a rather different thing to pasture and rotate, when compared to what most hobbyists do - a better thing, in my opinion - but definitely different.
Not all men did it back in the day, however, being driven by somewhat different forces than we envision today. Yet, they still did better than most today might manage. Photos of the period bear this out.

Are you using some sort of movable housing, a la Joel Salatin, or have you come up with a another wrinkle?

The idea of not doubling back on already grazed pasture due to excessive buildup of pathogens in the soil is a relatively recent thought, and probably not found in any of your older books on the subject. Furthermore, the pH of the soil is adversely affected by the chicken's raw manure, and I'm not sure the old operators ever quantified this.

Some of my fellow pastured poultry operators and I recently completed a three hour Agrifood Safety program given by our local state university extension agent. This is in preparation for GAP ( Good Agricultural Practices) certification by the USDA. We learned that the USDA has a problem, and that is as a society we are becoming less disease resistant. We eat more raw, uncooked foods than ever, and this requires that everything be clean. In other words, we as a society no longer "eat dirt".

When you legally sell your product to the public through a store, it becomes a different game. The USDA is even looking at where the water runs off to after a good heavy rain. They want to see your well and septic field. They have regulations concerning compost piles even.

Yes, most of us employ what you refer to as Joel Salatin methods. We use mobile hen houses, or egg mobiles, and electric poultry fences. Some use livestock guardian dogs to great success, I saw one innovative design where the operator backs his entire hen house built on a hay wagon running gear into a large green house for the winter. Hoop houses on skids is another cheap alternative.

Personally, what I do is fence off a large area of pasture, and then move my hay wagon chicken coops within the fenced area on a weekly basis. This reduces the severity of damage around the coops that the chickens incur, and also reduces the number of times I have to move the fence which is a time consuming and laborious process, All in all, though, it still works out to about 500 birds per acre per week.

As commercial pastured poultry operators, we are very proud of our operations. We do our best to give our customers a high quality egg at reasonable prices. We frequently give public farm tours because we value our customers, and survive on these trusting relationships.