How to cull hatchery stock for a better dual-purpose bird

[my sunwolf]

This post addresses improving a mutt flock, not culling to a breed standard. Thanks in advance for any advice!

I've been reading this thread and am really enjoying trying to learn the SOP for various breeds and apply that to a mixed breed flock. I understand that it's easier to start with good stock and make it better than to start with bad stock and make it great.

But as a general rule, what kinds of things should I look for when culling hatchery birds to make a better flock? (One note: I most admire breeder quality Orpingtons and Wyandottes, so I would like to steer my mixed flock in that direction).

Here are some traits that I know are keepers:

1. Deep chests, though as I understand it these don't always fill out until they're older. Nice "cleavage" for breast meat.

2. Wide skulls.

3. Wide tails and fluffy butts (no pinched tails).

4. Short beaks (?).

5. Wide stance (adequate space between the legs), as well as general "roundness" (no long, gamey bodies and necks).

6. Good-looking combs (not crooked or deformed).

7. Egg-laying ability (I'm not doing trap nests, but I do spend a lot of time observing which hens go into the nest boxes). On this note, I try to check pubic bone width, comb color, and possible molting in the girls I'm unsure about. In a dual-purpose flock, I only expect an egg every other day, but I expect it well into a hen's 3rd year and hopefully beyond.

8. Foraging ability. The desire to search for food instead of hanging around the feed trough all day. Determined by observation.

9. Temperament. Friendly hens that are not overly flighty. Roosters that are polite with the hens (tidbitting, dancing, guarding) and respectful of people. I would prefer that these are natural traits, not any result of taming on my part, so I try not to socialize my chicks and instead watch for good personalities starting at 8 weeks of age and continuing into maturity.

10. Health. Does not fall prey to vent gleet, internal laying, or prolapse. I cull for bumblefoot but not many other physical injuries (I am convinced that bumblefoot is a failure of the immune system to fight off bacteria and infection). Bright eyes, smooth legs (again, certain of my hens are more vulnerable to scaly leg than others and have gotten it first and worst when there have been infestations).


What else could we add to the list?

 

[3KillerBs]

I am not yet a chicken owner but as a matter of principle when breeding any animal I would suggest only breeding mature, proven stock -- animals who have made it past their first year without health issues. Specifically to chickens, I'd suggest looking at how long the downtime is between stopping laying one year and resuming the next and breed for a late stop and an early resumption -- just like I save seeds from the first tomatoes to ripen in my garden and the last to give up in the fall.

This would also assure that the chickens were, again like my tomatoes, well-adapted to your climate and your system of keeping them since they'd experienced at least a full year of the prevailing conditions.

 

[donrae]

Sounds like you have a pretty good list! The only thing I can think to add right off is broodiness, is that something you're interested in?

And I know it's not imperative, but keep in mind color. A bird that's more pleasing for you to look at is going to bring you more enjoyment.

 

[missnu01]

I am also making my own perfect breed...I haven't thought it out as well as you have though. I just like big chickens that lay a lot and don't get sick often. Pretty easy to figure that out though..cull the sick, and the small...
I like being able to eat my chickens if they are roosters, or if they stop laying...I have some small chickens now that I wish I didn't get...but I will keep them until all the large fowl I have as chicks now start laying. I will probably keep them after that, just because I have a hard time culling a chicken that is doing it's chicken job, giving me eggs and clucking around the yard...So I just won't hatch any of the eggs..that way when these small chickens are gone there will be no more small chickens. I like larger eggs, I do like how well the small chickens are with foraging. They like to be out more so than my larger current chickens. There isn't a day that goes by that the small chickens aren't outside in the yard, and they lay like crazy, then again they all just started laying within the last couple weeks so we are at max egg level right now. I went from getting 2 eggs a day at least everyday from 3 chickens to getting at least 4 eggs a day from 7...so perhaps one pullet isn't laying..the best I have gotten so far is 6/7 2 days in a row...
I got 6/7 and then 6/7 and then 5/7 and then 5/7 again then yesterday 4 and then today 4 again...So we are going down each day. I could do without the decrease, but I figure tomorrow should be another 6 egg day. I hope so anyway.

I have 24 maran mixed eggs in the incubator now...All large fowl. I will have some olive eggers, and there are some eggs from olive eggers that are huge. I am guessing they should hatch some huge chickens...which is what I want. More to eat, more to love. I don't even care all that much how they look as long as they look interesting. The more color the better as far as I am concerned. So, not a big fan of all white chickens, although I have a couple now...I like them a lot, but I wish they had stripes or spots and about 12 colors...I basically want to take all the breeds I like and roll them into one super chicken...Lol.
Just have to keep out the traits I don't want..which is super slow growers, and small chickens. I want to be able to eat roosters fast, and get eggs quick as well. I like a chicken that lays around 6 months or less...I just plan to see how it all goes.

 

[my sunwolf]

I am not yet a chicken owner but as a matter of principle when breeding any animal I would suggest only breeding mature, proven stock -- animals who have made it past their first year without health issues. Specifically to chickens, I'd suggest looking at how long the downtime is between stopping laying one year and resuming the next and breed for a late stop and an early resumption -- just like I save seeds from the first tomatoes to ripen in my garden and the last to give up in the fall.

This would also assure that the chickens were, again like my tomatoes, well-adapted to your climate and your system of keeping them since they'd experienced at least a full year of the prevailing conditions.

This is really good advice about breeding that I hadn't thought of. I know a lot of breeders who hatch out eggs and start breeding and selling that stock as soon as those girls start laying. Now I wonder if that's really wise. Not to mention, selling off the first eggs of unproven stock without seeing the babies first.

The tomato seed comparison might be a bit difficult to do with chickens. You would have to band and label individuals, and then have some way of telling which individuals started laying early (I think most use trap nests or some sort of pen system). Then you would have to keep records of the individual girls and how long it took them to molt, how long it took them to lay again in the spring, etc. Though I guess, if her molt was taking too long, you could just cull her then and there.

Sounds like you have a pretty good list! The only thing I can think to add right off is broodiness, is that something you're interested in?

And I know it's not imperative, but keep in mind color. A bird that's more pleasing for you to look at is going to bring you more enjoyment.

I actually tend to focus too much on color

I am easily drawn in by eye candy (many bright, solid colors and shiny feathers on a rooster), but on closer inspection might see that that particular bird has a really narrow body with a pinched tail. This happened to me this morning with this guy:




I LOVE his coloration, even though he lacks beards and muffs (this is probably going to be a physical requirement of most of the flock since I think they're cute). His chest, right now, looks a little shallow to me, but he's only 4 months old. I need to choose 2-3 roosters to keep around until they turn 6 months and I can (hopefully) see where they're going. Not sure I want to keep this guy, but he does have a quirky personality, is a good protector, forager, ignores me, and is beautiful; he has had no diarrhea or poopy butt, has a nice solid comb (that should develop as he gets older), good legs. Kind of has Wheaten Ameraucana coloring, but without the body shape. Maybe he just needs to fill out.

Hm, and I haven't thought about broodiness, since that's never come up in my flock. I guess I wouldn't mind broodiness in older hens; just as long as the young girls were laying like crazy, the older girls could raise the babies. I think that would be ideal.

I am also making my own perfect breed...I haven't thought it out as well as you have though. I just like big chickens that lay a lot and don't get sick often. Pretty easy to figure that out though..cull the sick, and the small...
I like being able to eat my chickens if they are roosters, or if they stop laying...I have some small chickens now that I wish I didn't get...but I will keep them until all the large fowl I have as chicks now start laying. I will probably keep them after that, just because I have a hard time culling a chicken that is doing it's chicken job, giving me eggs and clucking around the yard...So I just won't hatch any of the eggs..that way when these small chickens are gone there will be no more small chickens. I like larger eggs, I do like how well the small chickens are with foraging. They like to be out more so than my larger current chickens. There isn't a day that goes by that the small chickens aren't outside in the yard, and they lay like crazy, then again they all just started laying within the last couple weeks so we are at max egg level right now. I went from getting 2 eggs a day at least everyday from 3 chickens to getting at least 4 eggs a day from 7...so perhaps one pullet isn't laying..the best I have gotten so far is 6/7 2 days in a row...
I got 6/7 and then 6/7 and then 5/7 and then 5/7 again then yesterday 4 and then today 4 again...So we are going down each day. I could do without the decrease, but I figure tomorrow should be another 6 egg day. I hope so anyway.

I have 24 maran mixed eggs in the incubator now...All large fowl. I will have some olive eggers, and there are some eggs from olive eggers that are huge. I am guessing they should hatch some huge chickens...which is what I want. More to eat, more to love. I don't even care all that much how they look as long as they look interesting. The more color the better as far as I am concerned. So, not a big fan of all white chickens, although I have a couple now...I like them a lot, but I wish they had stripes or spots and about 12 colors...I basically want to take all the breeds I like and roll them into one super chicken...Lol.
Just have to keep out the traits I don't want..which is super slow growers, and small chickens. I want to be able to eat roosters fast, and get eggs quick as well. I like a chicken that lays around 6 months or less...I just plan to see how it all goes.

It actually sounds like you've thought it out quite a bit! I agree with the egg laying at 6 months or less; I have an Australorp who's about to turn 1 year and still hasn't laid an egg! Though that could be because she was born at a weird time. Not sure.

Seems like the small-bodied gamey birds tend to lay a lot of eggs (I'm thinking of leghorns here). Primarily they do also forage very well. I've been impressed with bantams that lay well, since a bantam egg is huge compared to their body size (even moreso than a LF chicken). Maybe it would be wise to also have a bantam flock that has different standards than the main flock.

I can kill and eat any sized chicken; it all depends on is it worth it? For a bantam? Not really

All that time and energy for an itty bitty carcass just doesn't make much sense to me. Then again, it's a lot easier to clean a 3-4lb bird than a 5-6lb bird (and I've never done a turkey but I can imagine that it would be awful).

I'm with you, though, it's hard for me to cull a nice young hen who's laying eggs just because she doesn't fit the breeding program. I considered selling them, but no one around here wants to pay $20 for a mutt hen (though maybe for an Easter Egger or Olive Egger), and that's what it costs to bring them up to laying age.

"...big chickens that lay a lot and don't get sick often." This sounds like the perfect place to start. I might have to steal that for my own flock.


Thank you all for these fantastic additions!

I might have to get some photos of the flock and different hens and roosters with different shaped bodies and get your opinions on who looks good for breeding and who looks good for eating.

 

[3KillerBs]

...

The tomato seed comparison might be a bit difficult to do with chickens. You would have to band and label individuals, and then have some way of telling which individuals started laying early (I think most use trap nests or some sort of pen system). Then you would have to keep records of the individual girls and how long it took them to molt, how long it took them to lay again in the spring, etc. ...


...

I presumed that anyone who was actively engaged in a breeding program would be doing that as a matter of course. You can't breed towards a goal if you don't know what you're working with.

 

[my sunwolf]

I presumed that anyone who was actively engaged in a breeding program would be doing that as a matter of course. You can't breed towards a goal if you don't know what you're working with.

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I really liked your advice! I was just interested in going through possibilities of how to monitor for which individuals are laying and what would be the simplest method/the method most appropriate to a small-scale program. I guess the best way would be to determine my goals with this particular trait and figure out the kind of monitoring needed to reach those goals.

The way I do it right now is put small numbers in pens, and then make sure that sometimes I get 100% laying out of the pen; that way I know that all the girls in there are laying at least some of the time. Not perfect, but works okay.

In theory, if you incubate and hatch eggs often enough, the girls who lay the most will have the most offspring, so the frequent laying genetics will be in the flock in larger numbers than the infrequent laying genetics.

My breeding plan is not yet laid out in that you can only generally focus on 1-3 goals at a time, ideally 2. So it comes down to choosing what to focus on for F1!