- Thread starter
- #11
Gonda
Songster
- Nov 14, 2009
- 191
- 18
- 174
Hi Sherpagirl,
Interesting, reading your experiences and your conclusions about the approach you want to take. Very much my line of thought, as you had picked up on. And I'm glad I read your post, as I was just talking to a poultry consultant today and he mentioned that my chickens could have secondary effects from the coccidiosis, and could develop bacterial infections and need antibiotics. I had been talking to him because I learned yesterday from the lab pathologist that the two chickens I submitted for necropsy also had capillaria nematodes and round worms, and the capillaria can be quite serious. And, they had not one strain of cocci, but multiple strains. So, I have a problem here. It sounds like my place is a mess, but truly, I take good care of my chickens. But, unfortunately, space is an issue and I can't rotate coop and run. I also had a flock previously that consisted of older hens obtained from different places, before I realized that is not a good route to go. And then my whole flock was killed in a dog attack (a dog found a weak area in the run fence and pushed through - it's been rebuilt now). So, I did clean out the coop thoroughly and it was empty for a few months, but then I took a few young almost adult birds again. Within a month two died of Marek's disease, which I had not encountered before, and they were vaccinated. I'm wondering if they had worms, which I read can make them more prone to develop Marek's (a stress). I should have heeded the advice of the owner and should have dewormed them when I got them. But I used DE in their feed and in the shavings. So, I'm wondering if the hen that has the abscess and falls asleep all the time has worms, (as the falling asleep is a symptom) and if some or all of the 14 week old chicks have worms now also, as well as coccidiosis. And I have to continue the treatment for cocci and then give a 24 hour break before I can start with the deworming treatment.
So, I've been reading up on natural de-worming treatments, and came across a document that recommends pumpkin seeds, as a laxative flush. I started that last night, along with several cloves of garlic, crushed, in yogurt, but not after fasting them for 12 hours though. I might try that next. Anyway, when I mentioned to the vet that I was afraid some might be showing some early signs of reduced activity, going off on their own, head shaking, and wondered if it might be worms that are getting them, he said to wait with that treatment, but cautioned that they might also be developing the secondary effects of coccidiosis. So, I started worrying about that. However, when I read your post I realized, oh yes, garlic could help with that. I do want to avoid antibiotics for the same reason you mentioned. And, I did add Vit A and D to the mash, as Vit A is mentioned in a few places as perhaps being effective against capillaria worms. And I'm giving them Vit E, as that might help to reduce the coccidiosis. Are you aware of the use of colloidal silver, as a natural antibiotic? I use that when I don't know what else to do, and had been putting that in water before I started the amprol, and have given it to the sleepy hen, directly, for her abscess.
Thanks for the link, interesting information there.
I was also concerned that they might be developing thiamine deficiency. The pathologist said not to worry about that, as it's only short term, and she commented that the thiamine in the amprol is an analogue, so might not have much effect on the chickens. And she said they probably are still getting enough vitamins in their diet. I did give them vitamin supplements before I started the amprol treatment and will resume that as soon as the treatment is finished.
I was concerned this morning, and again when I came home from work, as the chickens all seem so quiet and less active. But then all of a sudden they get up and act totally normal. None of that hunched posture. I'll keep giving the pumpkin seed and garlic, and DE and probiotics and Vit A, D, E. Phew, hopefully they will survive this. I have a hen on eggs, due to hatch on the 19th, which is a concern. I can start treating for worms around the 17th. And the hen is not getting off much to eat and drink, so won't get the de-worming treatment until the chicks hatch and she gets off her nest to eat again. And, I need to do a total scrub of the coop before the chicks hatch, to reduce the worm and cocci load. But the run is another concern. I can't move it. I've read about liming the run and doing a cayenne fumigation! That sounds interesting. Have you heard of that? I have a 50' run. What would the lime do to the chickens, if they get too much of that?
Your story is so similar to mine. I've lost 6 out of 14 chicks in the last 4 weeks, and two older birds earlier, to Marek's. And I've been learning from mistakes and trying to learn all I can about these various issues which I never encountered before. I only raised chicks with a mom before, and am happy that's the case this time. The eggs are from the same place I got the older birds and chicks from, so not from these hens, except one egg the hen laid. So we'll give them a natural start, in better summer conditions. I will have to vaccinate against Marek's though. I don't think I have a choice there this time, as those deaths were too recent. I don't want to take a chance with that, though I read that the vaccine doesn't make them immune, but only prevents the symptoms of tumour and paralysis, and not in all cases, as I learned. They can still carry and shed the virus. So it would be better to help them develop natural immunity. What do you do with your chicks?
About the coccidiosis again, the pathologist agreed with me that the chicks most likely developed the coccidiosis because they weren't exposed to some protozoa and didn't have a chance to develop immunity. She said that most starter doesn't include amprol, but something else, which is what I thought, but I have read on the various sites that people are saying that chick starter includes amprol. Maybe that varies.
Sorry, my story is jumping around a bit. I am writing whatever comes to mind...
Here is another link I came across, where I read about the pumpkin seed treatment for worms:
http://www.kingbirdfarm.com/Layerhealthcompendium.pdf
Interesting, reading your experiences and your conclusions about the approach you want to take. Very much my line of thought, as you had picked up on. And I'm glad I read your post, as I was just talking to a poultry consultant today and he mentioned that my chickens could have secondary effects from the coccidiosis, and could develop bacterial infections and need antibiotics. I had been talking to him because I learned yesterday from the lab pathologist that the two chickens I submitted for necropsy also had capillaria nematodes and round worms, and the capillaria can be quite serious. And, they had not one strain of cocci, but multiple strains. So, I have a problem here. It sounds like my place is a mess, but truly, I take good care of my chickens. But, unfortunately, space is an issue and I can't rotate coop and run. I also had a flock previously that consisted of older hens obtained from different places, before I realized that is not a good route to go. And then my whole flock was killed in a dog attack (a dog found a weak area in the run fence and pushed through - it's been rebuilt now). So, I did clean out the coop thoroughly and it was empty for a few months, but then I took a few young almost adult birds again. Within a month two died of Marek's disease, which I had not encountered before, and they were vaccinated. I'm wondering if they had worms, which I read can make them more prone to develop Marek's (a stress). I should have heeded the advice of the owner and should have dewormed them when I got them. But I used DE in their feed and in the shavings. So, I'm wondering if the hen that has the abscess and falls asleep all the time has worms, (as the falling asleep is a symptom) and if some or all of the 14 week old chicks have worms now also, as well as coccidiosis. And I have to continue the treatment for cocci and then give a 24 hour break before I can start with the deworming treatment.
So, I've been reading up on natural de-worming treatments, and came across a document that recommends pumpkin seeds, as a laxative flush. I started that last night, along with several cloves of garlic, crushed, in yogurt, but not after fasting them for 12 hours though. I might try that next. Anyway, when I mentioned to the vet that I was afraid some might be showing some early signs of reduced activity, going off on their own, head shaking, and wondered if it might be worms that are getting them, he said to wait with that treatment, but cautioned that they might also be developing the secondary effects of coccidiosis. So, I started worrying about that. However, when I read your post I realized, oh yes, garlic could help with that. I do want to avoid antibiotics for the same reason you mentioned. And, I did add Vit A and D to the mash, as Vit A is mentioned in a few places as perhaps being effective against capillaria worms. And I'm giving them Vit E, as that might help to reduce the coccidiosis. Are you aware of the use of colloidal silver, as a natural antibiotic? I use that when I don't know what else to do, and had been putting that in water before I started the amprol, and have given it to the sleepy hen, directly, for her abscess.
Thanks for the link, interesting information there.
I was also concerned that they might be developing thiamine deficiency. The pathologist said not to worry about that, as it's only short term, and she commented that the thiamine in the amprol is an analogue, so might not have much effect on the chickens. And she said they probably are still getting enough vitamins in their diet. I did give them vitamin supplements before I started the amprol treatment and will resume that as soon as the treatment is finished.
I was concerned this morning, and again when I came home from work, as the chickens all seem so quiet and less active. But then all of a sudden they get up and act totally normal. None of that hunched posture. I'll keep giving the pumpkin seed and garlic, and DE and probiotics and Vit A, D, E. Phew, hopefully they will survive this. I have a hen on eggs, due to hatch on the 19th, which is a concern. I can start treating for worms around the 17th. And the hen is not getting off much to eat and drink, so won't get the de-worming treatment until the chicks hatch and she gets off her nest to eat again. And, I need to do a total scrub of the coop before the chicks hatch, to reduce the worm and cocci load. But the run is another concern. I can't move it. I've read about liming the run and doing a cayenne fumigation! That sounds interesting. Have you heard of that? I have a 50' run. What would the lime do to the chickens, if they get too much of that?
Your story is so similar to mine. I've lost 6 out of 14 chicks in the last 4 weeks, and two older birds earlier, to Marek's. And I've been learning from mistakes and trying to learn all I can about these various issues which I never encountered before. I only raised chicks with a mom before, and am happy that's the case this time. The eggs are from the same place I got the older birds and chicks from, so not from these hens, except one egg the hen laid. So we'll give them a natural start, in better summer conditions. I will have to vaccinate against Marek's though. I don't think I have a choice there this time, as those deaths were too recent. I don't want to take a chance with that, though I read that the vaccine doesn't make them immune, but only prevents the symptoms of tumour and paralysis, and not in all cases, as I learned. They can still carry and shed the virus. So it would be better to help them develop natural immunity. What do you do with your chicks?
About the coccidiosis again, the pathologist agreed with me that the chicks most likely developed the coccidiosis because they weren't exposed to some protozoa and didn't have a chance to develop immunity. She said that most starter doesn't include amprol, but something else, which is what I thought, but I have read on the various sites that people are saying that chick starter includes amprol. Maybe that varies.
Sorry, my story is jumping around a bit. I am writing whatever comes to mind...
Here is another link I came across, where I read about the pumpkin seed treatment for worms:
http://www.kingbirdfarm.com/Layerhealthcompendium.pdf
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