Unfortunately a lot of folks have lost chickens in this heat. Not many people with small flocks air condition the coops. I cant speak to the breed genetic issues.
I think I gave my bird a heart attack!
- Thread starter Tracydr
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I'm sorry but I have to semi disagree with you here. If you have only a couple that develop leg or heart issues and the rest are completely healthy, no way can that reflect on the way you take care of them. If the majority are healthy how can you say that you are not taking proper care of them if you have one go down with leg issues. With my first batch I ended up butchering one at 4 weeks due to leg issues and the rest were completely healthy to butcher date. I took very good care of my birds!! I feel that genetics has to come into play a little bit here. In no way do I feel that they are a genetic monstrosity but feel that some are just predisposed to certain issues. The same can be said with every living thing as nothing is perfect!
I agree. If you have one or two with leg or heart problems and the rest are big and healthy, how can that mean you didn't care for them properly? And, how does management explain the fact that the one's with the leg and heart problems were much smaller than the other birds, even though they appeared healthy, up until the day they had a bad leg or died of a heart attack. I really believe the leg and heart issues are genetic anomalies which are inherent to the breed. Perhaps there is a "magic" supplement or special brand of feed that will work better but overall, there are just going to be a certain amount of issues inherent to raising this breed. I think if you chose to raise this breed, you have to be prepared to deal with that.
I had two early on with leg problems, between 4-5 weeks. I had no issues until now, when the birds are 10 weeks and 5 days. I think the fact that they've made it through an AZ summer when people all over the state have had birds of all breeds dying is a testament to good management and the health of the group overall. They even survived two weeks of heat greater than 115 degrees, one day was a record 121. But, the added stress of a panicky situation ( bird didn't like being in the strange coop) in 110 degree heat, was just too much. I still believe that this bird was inherently weak, thus, the unusually small size compared to the other birds, which are all Pullets, BTW.
I'm sorry but I have to semi disagree with you here. If you have only a couple that develop leg or heart issues and the rest are completely healthy, no way can that reflect on the way you take care of them. If the majority are healthy how can you say that you are not taking proper care of them if you have one go down with leg issues. With my first batch I ended up butchering one at 4 weeks due to leg issues and the rest were completely healthy to butcher date. I took very good care of my birds!! I feel that genetics has to come into play a little bit here. In no way do I feel that they are a genetic monstrosity but feel that some are just predisposed to certain issues. The same can be said with every living thing as nothing is perfect!
I agree. If you have one or two with leg or heart problems and the rest are big and healthy, how can that mean you didn't care for them properly? And, how does management explain the fact that the one's with the leg and heart problems were much smaller than the other birds, even though they appeared healthy, up until the day they had a bad leg or died of a heart attack. I really believe the leg and heart issues are genetic anomalies which are inherent to the breed. Perhaps there is a "magic" supplement or special brand of feed that will work better but overall, there are just going to be a certain amount of issues inherent to raising this breed. I think if you chose to raise this breed, you have to be prepared to deal with that.
I had two early on with leg problems, between 4-5 weeks. I had no issues until now, when the birds are 10 weeks and 5 days. I think the fact that they've made it through an AZ summer when people all over the state have had birds of all breeds dying is a testament to good management and the health of the group overall. They even survived two weeks of heat greater than 115 degrees, one day was a record 121. But, the added stress of a panicky situation ( bird didn't like being in the strange coop) in 110 degree heat, was just too much. I still believe that this bird was inherently weak, thus, the unusually small size compared to the other birds, which are all Pullets, BTW.
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Well, I guess I could bring them in the house with the AC on and plant them in from of the TV on a diet. Can't help that it's 110 degrees outside and the added stress just did the bird in. Moving to a coop that was literally 20 feet from where they hang out on the ground was the least stressful thing that I could do for them, given that the yard was about to be flooded by six inches of water. I highly doubt this would have killed any of my layer and heritage breed fowl. As far as the leg problems, how do you prevent them? I was using 20% broiler feed and taking it away at night.
I think they're great birds, for what they are but they will have problems, some of them, anyway. I like them for what they are. I don't feel like I've done anything wrong in the way I've taken care of them. I don't like that some people have raise a single batch and get lucky, then think have the answers to all of this breed's problems.
Just wanted to point out that credit for that post goes to MVchickens, not me.
Well, I guess I could bring them in the house with the AC on and plant them in from of the TV on a diet. Can't help that it's 110 degrees outside and the added stress just did the bird in. Moving to a coop that was literally 20 feet from where they hang out on the ground was the least stressful thing that I could do for them, given that the yard was about to be flooded by six inches of water. I highly doubt this would have killed any of my layer and heritage breed fowl. As far as the leg problems, how do you prevent them? I was using 20% broiler feed and taking it away at night.
I think they're great birds, for what they are but they will have problems, some of them, anyway. I like them for what they are. I don't feel like I've done anything wrong in the way I've taken care of them. I don't like that some people have raise a single batch and get lucky, then think have the answers to all of this breed's problems.
Just wanted to point out that credit for that post goes to MVchickens, not me.
- Thread starter
- #14
Quote:
Well, I guess I could bring them in the house with the AC on and plant them in from of the TV on a diet. Can't help that it's 110 degrees outside and the added stress just did the bird in. Moving to a coop that was literally 20 feet from where they hang out on the ground was the least stressful thing that I could do for them, given that the yard was about to be flooded by six inches of water. I highly doubt this would have killed any of my layer and heritage breed fowl. As far as the leg problems, how do you prevent them? I was using 20% broiler feed and taking it away at night.
I think they're great birds, for what they are but they will have problems, some of them, anyway. I like them for what they are. I don't feel like I've done anything wrong in the way I've taken care of them. I don't like that some people have raise a single batch and get lucky, then think have the answers to all of this breed's problems.
Just wanted to point out that credit for that post goes to MVchickens, not me.
Sorry about that. I don't know how that happens when you hit the quote option and it quotes the wrong member?
Well, I guess I could bring them in the house with the AC on and plant them in from of the TV on a diet. Can't help that it's 110 degrees outside and the added stress just did the bird in. Moving to a coop that was literally 20 feet from where they hang out on the ground was the least stressful thing that I could do for them, given that the yard was about to be flooded by six inches of water. I highly doubt this would have killed any of my layer and heritage breed fowl. As far as the leg problems, how do you prevent them? I was using 20% broiler feed and taking it away at night.
I think they're great birds, for what they are but they will have problems, some of them, anyway. I like them for what they are. I don't feel like I've done anything wrong in the way I've taken care of them. I don't like that some people have raise a single batch and get lucky, then think have the answers to all of this breed's problems.
Just wanted to point out that credit for that post goes to MVchickens, not me.
Sorry about that. I don't know how that happens when you hit the quote option and it quotes the wrong member?
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What are you calling leg problems? My "failure to thrive" chicks have been the the first to display symptems of ascites by starting to be unable to stand or walk, but sometimes there are smaller ones on day one that seem to grow as well as any. When I culled a belly crawler last year, her legs prooved to be fine, but her body cavity was filled with fluid, and her heart was very soft and pale colored.
The two with leg problems earlier both seemed to have slipped tendons. They acted like broken legs but when butchered, the legs appeared to be fine.
The one last night did not have any ascites but did have a small heart. Her liver appeared normal. I could be missing ascites, since I'm new to processing chickens, but Gould think I could recognize a weak heart, being a doctor and all. I'm assuming with ascites you get a pretty fair amount of fluid when you pull out the intestines? Would the liver also look congested? Also, is the heart enlarged or smaller with the type of heart failure these birds tend to get?
I did have farm animal anatomy in Undergrad because I was an Animal Sciences Major at CSU.
Sorry I didn't answer sooner Tracy. I had no others to compare that pale, soft heart with; whether it was larger than a healthy CX of that age I don't know, but it seemed large. I can't even remember the liver, so doubt it looked abnormal, but there was so much fluid in her that I thought twice before finishing processing her for my own food, and usually feed the organ meat, head, feet, etc., to the dogs anyway. [My bulldogs get some flip death chickens after skinning without gutting; I just filet the breasts, cut off wings, legs, and thighs, and feed it all raw....................... I never see their organs.] I know some say the failure to thrive chick's hearts are poor from the start, but no personal research there. The CX I grew up on were slower to finish, and had fewer growth related problems; and as an adult I just had and processed DPs untill getting birds again last year, after many years without.
What are you calling leg problems? My "failure to thrive" chicks have been the the first to display symptems of ascites by starting to be unable to stand or walk, but sometimes there are smaller ones on day one that seem to grow as well as any. When I culled a belly crawler last year, her legs prooved to be fine, but her body cavity was filled with fluid, and her heart was very soft and pale colored.
The two with leg problems earlier both seemed to have slipped tendons. They acted like broken legs but when butchered, the legs appeared to be fine.
The one last night did not have any ascites but did have a small heart. Her liver appeared normal. I could be missing ascites, since I'm new to processing chickens, but Gould think I could recognize a weak heart, being a doctor and all. I'm assuming with ascites you get a pretty fair amount of fluid when you pull out the intestines? Would the liver also look congested? Also, is the heart enlarged or smaller with the type of heart failure these birds tend to get?
I did have farm animal anatomy in Undergrad because I was an Animal Sciences Major at CSU.
Sorry I didn't answer sooner Tracy. I had no others to compare that pale, soft heart with; whether it was larger than a healthy CX of that age I don't know, but it seemed large. I can't even remember the liver, so doubt it looked abnormal, but there was so much fluid in her that I thought twice before finishing processing her for my own food, and usually feed the organ meat, head, feet, etc., to the dogs anyway. [My bulldogs get some flip death chickens after skinning without gutting; I just filet the breasts, cut off wings, legs, and thighs, and feed it all raw....................... I never see their organs.] I know some say the failure to thrive chick's hearts are poor from the start, but no personal research there. The CX I grew up on were slower to finish, and had fewer growth related problems; and as an adult I just had and processed DPs untill getting birds again last year, after many years without.
- Aug 5, 2011
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" flip death chickens?"
what does that mean?
what does that mean?
- Sep 1, 2008
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I am financially involved with a broiler chicken growing operation.
This is what we do and the results we achieve-
The number of day old chicks placed in the houses is determined by providing each with .625 sq ft/ 90 sq inches of floor space.
These chicks are not subjected to high quality control standards prior to being sent to us. They are simply not scrutinized as closely as chicks for retail sale are. But they do come to us in a very timely manner and are not subjected to conditions (hatchery trucks) that often result in ascites later in life.
Every flock is vaccinated for certain diseases. Coccidiastats in the feed are used the first four weeks. They are never wormed and are not negatively affected by internal parasites if they do have them. I imagine I am the only person involved in the operation that even knows what an external parasite looks like and the climate is a very favorable environment for all sorts mites, lice, ticks and other insects that are troublesome.
Loses to predation do not occur unless the birds are frightened by other animals (or sometimes the weather) and pile and suffocate
The complete feed that they receive starts out at 22% crude protein and decreases to 19% by the time they are slaughtered at 41 days of age.
Fans and brooding appliances are used to maintain optimum temperature and air quality in the buildings when the birds are young. We use natural ventilation, after the brooding period, until the inside temperature of the building reaches 80 degrees then additional fans start operating. The ventilation system is capable of moving air thru the building up to 400' per minute or about 4.5 MPH for when the birds are older. A cooling system (flash evaporation) is available for use but seldom does the outside air get much above 85 degrees so it is not used very often. Flash evaporation starts when the air exhausted by the fans would be 88 degrees without it.
The litter used is very durable and the ventilation system keeps the litter quite dry and reduces dust effectively. The buildings are cleaned out totally once a year. A portion of new litter is added at the beginning of each flock.
There is a lighting program that is strictly adhered to. Six hours of darkness is the least night like conditions they will ever experience. The concept of 12on/12off would be considered the most foolish notion anyone ever thought of.
There is one nipple drinker for each 15 birds placed.
Over five years time these are the average results; the livability was 94.4% (2.360 birds lost [ALL causes] per 25 placed), the average weight at slaughter was 5.65 lbs. (as hatched), the average feed conversion was 1.81lbs of feed per pound of live weight. Correction. During the five year time period one entire flock was lost due to weather and is not counted in these average results. (That was a mess, they were all 3.5 weeks old).
These broilers are the same meat birds backyarders buy as Cornish whatevers. Virtually no difference. The facilities are designed for the birds, the birds are bred for optimum (profitable) performance in such buildings. Feed is the largest single cost in the operation. It is a complete ration designed to profitably optimize the genetic potential of the birds that were bred for these circumstances.
MY CONCLUSION TO THE OTHER POSTS JUST PRIOR TO THESE COMMENTS IS-
The failures considered extreme in backyard production of modern meat chickens are most times attributable to management and nutrition factors that do not meet the birds basic requirements to thrive.
When raised within the parameters for which they are bred this is one of the most successful domesticated animals we have. In reality these birds are very tough. This is a requirement for what they are. Farm animals for food production, not pets. But not all of them are going to make it. Just because a few die and most do better is not to say that the genetics are weak or that the husbandry is perfect.
This is what we do and the results we achieve-
The number of day old chicks placed in the houses is determined by providing each with .625 sq ft/ 90 sq inches of floor space.
These chicks are not subjected to high quality control standards prior to being sent to us. They are simply not scrutinized as closely as chicks for retail sale are. But they do come to us in a very timely manner and are not subjected to conditions (hatchery trucks) that often result in ascites later in life.
Every flock is vaccinated for certain diseases. Coccidiastats in the feed are used the first four weeks. They are never wormed and are not negatively affected by internal parasites if they do have them. I imagine I am the only person involved in the operation that even knows what an external parasite looks like and the climate is a very favorable environment for all sorts mites, lice, ticks and other insects that are troublesome.
Loses to predation do not occur unless the birds are frightened by other animals (or sometimes the weather) and pile and suffocate
The complete feed that they receive starts out at 22% crude protein and decreases to 19% by the time they are slaughtered at 41 days of age.
Fans and brooding appliances are used to maintain optimum temperature and air quality in the buildings when the birds are young. We use natural ventilation, after the brooding period, until the inside temperature of the building reaches 80 degrees then additional fans start operating. The ventilation system is capable of moving air thru the building up to 400' per minute or about 4.5 MPH for when the birds are older. A cooling system (flash evaporation) is available for use but seldom does the outside air get much above 85 degrees so it is not used very often. Flash evaporation starts when the air exhausted by the fans would be 88 degrees without it.
The litter used is very durable and the ventilation system keeps the litter quite dry and reduces dust effectively. The buildings are cleaned out totally once a year. A portion of new litter is added at the beginning of each flock.
There is a lighting program that is strictly adhered to. Six hours of darkness is the least night like conditions they will ever experience. The concept of 12on/12off would be considered the most foolish notion anyone ever thought of.
There is one nipple drinker for each 15 birds placed.
Over five years time these are the average results; the livability was 94.4% (2.360 birds lost [ALL causes] per 25 placed), the average weight at slaughter was 5.65 lbs. (as hatched), the average feed conversion was 1.81lbs of feed per pound of live weight. Correction. During the five year time period one entire flock was lost due to weather and is not counted in these average results. (That was a mess, they were all 3.5 weeks old).
These broilers are the same meat birds backyarders buy as Cornish whatevers. Virtually no difference. The facilities are designed for the birds, the birds are bred for optimum (profitable) performance in such buildings. Feed is the largest single cost in the operation. It is a complete ration designed to profitably optimize the genetic potential of the birds that were bred for these circumstances.
MY CONCLUSION TO THE OTHER POSTS JUST PRIOR TO THESE COMMENTS IS-
The failures considered extreme in backyard production of modern meat chickens are most times attributable to management and nutrition factors that do not meet the birds basic requirements to thrive.
When raised within the parameters for which they are bred this is one of the most successful domesticated animals we have. In reality these birds are very tough. This is a requirement for what they are. Farm animals for food production, not pets. But not all of them are going to make it. Just because a few die and most do better is not to say that the genetics are weak or that the husbandry is perfect.
- Thread starter
- #18
Thanks, Neil. Highly interesting and informative. What are the hatchery conditions that contribute to ascites? I'm planning to do another batch of broilers later this fall, when our AZ temps will remain closer to optimum. I wish I could obtain better feed than Purina flock grower. Would you be willing to post some formulas that I could have a local mill produce in 500 lb quantities?
Our summer was insane to raise Cornish X. Mcmurray sent these as a mistake, I had ordered five different small laying breeds of heat tolerant types and received 17 broiler Pullets! Imagine my surprise!
I'm sure my fall batch will perform better, although I've been pleasantly amazed at how well they did this summer, given what I was led to expect. It was 110 the day the one bird expired and I caused adde stress by moving her to a strange coop. However, they survived two weeks of 115 degrees plus heat and a day of 121 degrees, remarkable, considering people in the area were losing chickens of all breeds and ages.
Our summer was insane to raise Cornish X. Mcmurray sent these as a mistake, I had ordered five different small laying breeds of heat tolerant types and received 17 broiler Pullets! Imagine my surprise!
I'm sure my fall batch will perform better, although I've been pleasantly amazed at how well they did this summer, given what I was led to expect. It was 110 the day the one bird expired and I caused adde stress by moving her to a strange coop. However, they survived two weeks of 115 degrees plus heat and a day of 121 degrees, remarkable, considering people in the area were losing chickens of all breeds and ages.
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- Thread starter
- #19
Just fed the heart to the dogs and looked at it again. Seemed much smaller and pale compared to other chicken hearts I've seen.
Quote:
Flip is a sudden heart attack, nicknamed that from the way they suddenly flip and land on their backs. If you read NG's post and then others raising them for home, you'll see many feeding an extra week or more on higher protein feed, looking to process a larger bird, and the risk of heart attacks or leg problems may increase a bit.
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