INDIANA BYC'ers HERE!

[kittydoc]

@EurekaChic You are never at risk of over-informing me! Since this stuff is fertilizer, I doubt it contains lead. The magnesium content was <1%, so anything else is definitely trace minerals. When you consider all the little rocks and so forth that chickens consume all the time to replace the grit in their gizzards, I'm not too concerned that it is not food grade. I don't think any of the calcium carbonate supplements we put out for our birds are human food grade. That would make it prohibitively expensive for a flock.

The product I purchased has a pellet size about 1/5 to 1/10 the size of an average piece of oyster shell calcium, with the rest even smaller, down to a powder. I put a little in my own mouth to check it out, and it dissolved in less than a minute. I know a piece of oyster shell wouldn't do that.

I do think I will start by putting the new high CaCO3 product in a self-feeding container next to the oyster shell, and see how it is received. I am aware of the adverse effects of excessive calcium (or any mineral) in birds or mammals. If I ever added it to our current layer feed, I'd have to pull out my animal nutrition math and see how much I could safely add without exceeding the maximum recommended value of calcium for layers. I find it odd that the layer feeds are all labeled "complete," yet every single book on poultry says we need to leave out a source of extra calcium for the birds to eat ad lib. That just seems contradictory to me.

Getting back to the calcium, we have kale growing in the garden now, and whenever I can get kale inexpensively, we give that as a treat as well. Most of our garden actually consists of "bird treats," like tomatoes, cucumbers, and squash. We also are trying to grow some cauliflower for winter. I've never had any luck growing broccoli for some reason....

 

[Leahs Mom]

@Leahs Mom I went to the Aragonite link you posted, and on the image of the product, it says it is 33% CaCO3, which is calcium carbonate. Some lime products have lower amounts (in the 20% range). The product I purchased was 99% CaCO3. Calcium carbonate is the same chemical no matter what its source, but there are certainly factors that can influence how well it is absorbed (and therefore how beneficial it is). Since I am not satisfied that my girls are getting quite enough from the layer feet and access to crushed oyster shell (which is also CaCO3), I am going to try the higher CaCO3, much smaller sized product. I know gizzards are powerful organs, and can crush that oyster shell, but I wonder if the calcium would be absorbed better if they didn't have to crush it so much. I will try this almost pure CaCO3 product (can't recall the name offhand) and see what happens. It sounds like the Aragonite is pretty finely ground, too, since they refer to it as "shell flour." Is that right? If so, it would make sense to me that's why you see better results that with most CaCO3 products which are coarser.

I haven't used it yet so I don't have anything to say for the comparison. You are right - different sources are more bioavailable than others. It seems that calcium from vegetable and rock sources are probably not the best alernative for any monogastric animal as far as absorption. From what I've read, it seems that absorption is higher from animal sources that they would get while out free-ranging if they were "wild".

It's so frustrating to me that so much of what we feed is not utilized.

 

[EurekaChic]

@EurekaChic
 You are never at risk of over-informing me!  Since this stuff is fertilizer, I doubt it contains lead.  The magnesium content was <1%, so anything else is definitely trace minerals.  When you consider all the little rocks and so forth that chickens consume all the time to replace the grit in their gizzards, I'm not too concerned that it is not food grade.  I don't think any of the calcium carbonate supplements we put out for our birds are human food grade.  That would make it prohibitively expensive for a flock.

The product I purchased has a pellet size about 1/5 to 1/10 the size of an average piece of oyster shell calcium, with the rest even smaller, down to a powder.  I put a little in my own mouth to check it out, and it dissolved in less than a minute.  I know a piece of oyster shell wouldn't do that.

I do think I will start by putting the new high CaCO3 product in a self-feeding container next to the oyster shell, and see how it is received.  I am aware of the adverse effects of excessive calcium (or any mineral) in birds or mammals.  If I ever added it to our current layer feed, I'd have to pull out my animal nutrition math and see how much I could safely add without exceeding the maximum recommended value of calcium for layers.  I find it odd that the layer feeds are all labeled "complete," yet every single book on poultry says we need to leave out a source of extra calcium for the birds to eat ad lib.  That just seems contradictory to me.

Getting back to the calcium, we have kale growing in the garden now, and whenever I can get kale inexpensively, we give that as a treat as well.  Most of our garden actually consists of "bird treats," like tomatoes, cucumbers, and squash.  We also are trying to grow some cauliflower for winter.  I've never had any luck growing broccoli for some reason....

[COLOR=006400] Sounds like you've thought about this pretty carefully. And I'm sure you know more about birds (and animal health in general) than I do. I think most people aren't aware that vet school is harder to get into than med school. And then you need to learn all the same stuff as a med student, but you need to learn it for multiple species!

It definitely makes sense that the smaller pellet size, and thus larger surface area for the volume, would make it easier to absorb the calcium in the gut. I'm interested to hear how the chickens treat the different source of calcium, and how their eggshells turn out. Can you post a pic of the stuff you have, so we can see how it compares to oyster shell?[/COLOR]

 

[bradselig]

I need some help coming up with a good friendly way of telling people my property is not for touring like a zoo.  We have had 3 different people stop by and ask to see the chickens in the past 10 days.  They say well we drive by all the time and just thought we stop in and see if you would show up your chickens. 


Currently I try to go into a detail explaination of bio security but they kind of roll their eyes and give me a look of disbelief.    Our coops can be seen from the road.  I have thought of making a sign but I'm not sure if that would make the problem worse.  We live on a busy road but in a country setting.

I'd think a sign along these lines would scare away most people.
http://www.hooksigns.com/i/PRODUCT IMAGES/Bio-Security-No-Entry-16x24.jpg

 

[Leahs Mom]

On the particle sizes...this is interesting...seems that having larger particles works better. Check this out...


Quote: Edited: The servers were down on the studies and now they are available from the footnotes on this article. I haven't read them all yet. Wish she referenced her statements to the articles in which they were found to make it a bit quicker.

 

[EurekaChic]

On the particle sizes...this is interesting...seems that having larger particles works better.  Check this out...


 
I was NOT able to find her source for saying this.

[COLOR=006400] I suspect this is because they aren't eating throughout the night. Since the lager particles take longer to break down they provide her with a constant source of calcium over night. If she ate only small particles, they might be absorbed too quickly and leave her with a burst of calcium followed by a lack of calcium. But during the day, it sounds like they prefer smaller pellet sizes, giving them more calcium in a shorter time, which can then be replenished by going back to the bowl relatively often. So perhaps the best approach is to offer them a variety of sizes of pellets?[/COLOR]

 

[CCCCCCCCHICKENS]

I got pecked in the face by a meat chicken tonight. I never did like the male meat chickens! Lol the girls are so sweet the boys always peck me!

 

[Leahs Mom]

Quote:
I do remember her stating that about it staying in the system longer either in this article (which I didn't see when reading it so maybe it's been edited?) or in another article. That was exactly the idea. And, yes, I think a variety of particle sizes makes sense. Especially that there are some large ones for them to choose if desired.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

Since you have one duckling (which I also have to mention is adorable!) maybe try putting a small, shallow bowl of water and see if she will knock it over. Also, I love the name Wibbles and that picture of her !

Thanks for the reply! I went to try this earlier and it led to... well, something of an adventure. Those of you grossed out by poop, stop reading now. (I know there are so many people like that on this thread. )

I had Wibbles out on some paper towels with her little dish to wash in, and she was flat out not interested. I splashed the water, I dropped it on her beak, I even tried to dunk her beak in it. Nothing. So we were going on with this struggle when I saw her do the poop motion, wings in the air and everything, but nothing came out. Uh-oh! I checked her out and sure enough she had a poopy butt, so instead of having her play in the water, I ended up using it to clean her butt off. After struggling with it for a while (is duck poop waterproof or something?!), to Wibbles' loud protest I might add, I decided I had to take drastic measures and clipped her rear clean. And then she let loose.

Right. On. My. Hand.

The good news is, she's all clear now and pooping everywhere (she was before, no worries there--she just was blocked for a few hours as far as I know!). The bad news is, she never got to try washing her head in the water. Oh well, we'll try again tomorrow.

 

[browncow15]

@racinchickins - yes the bird I was asking about is one I hatched from you.

@Leahs Mom - if you're looking for a specific cattle breed I would suggest googling the breed for their breed organization. They usually have a list of breeders and where they are located.