Integration Trouble

[jennirowlands]

If you have experience with integrating flocks/chicks and dealt with all the associated problems, I could really use some help and advice!

In March, I had 2 x 1yr old chickens (Dutch Bantam and Plymouth Rock Bantam) in a run outside, and 3 older chicks (8wks old - Cochin and Brahma Bantams) in a rabbit hutch.

The 3 large chicks were getting too big for the indoor rabbit hutch, so I started integration:
- 3weeks in the rabbit hutch, next to/inside the big run
- 2-3 weeks I sectioned off half the run for the chicks to have
- When all calmed down and they were able to feed/sleep next to the chicken wire without problems, I removed the wire (kept 2 food bowls, 2 water bowls and 2 sleeping areas). At the same time, I also had to re-home the Dutch Bantam (too noisy for the neighbours).

This left just my Plymouth rock bantam (Pepper) and the 3 chicks (now about 4 or 5 months old). She chased the chicks round, few pecks, several feathers pulled, but luckily only 1 bloody feather pulled. The chicks mostly ran and hid, and stuck together like glue. This seemed pretty normal from what I've been reading, and I was expecting a 2 week re-structuring period for the new flock. Then as things seemed to quieten a little, 1 chick died.

2-3 weeks later, and I'm STILL having issues. Pepper is still bullying the 2 remaining younger ones.

She pecks them quite viciously: on and off, very unpredictably, throughout the day. I can't see any real reason for her outbursts; the chicks keep themselves to themselves.

The chicks have a small hiding place, which they sometimes use, only coming out again when I'm there.

Confusingly, they sometimes get along just fine... for hours! And I think maybe it's nearly over, but then Pepper suddenly has an outburst, and I find them cowering in a corner with their heads down, cheeping - it's just heart breaking.
They genuinly seem scared of her. Whenever Pepper moves in the run, the chicks immediatly start watching incase she comes over.

More recently, I've noticed her picking on 1 chick more than the other. This poor chick has started looking sorry for herself and I think it's the stress. She still eats/drinks/poos, but doesn't peck around/interested in everything. Do chickens get stressed?
Now, when Pepper decides to attack her, she tries to run, then seems to run out of energy and just lies down and lets Pepper pluck as many feathers as she likes. No serious blood yet (I check every time) but my heart just breaks. when I hear the commotion and go out to find her lying in a crumpled heap, sometimes with Pepper still going for her...... :-( it can't be right. Surely this isn't normal? Surely the chicks should be able to run away or defend themselves.

Anyway, this is what's making me think enough is enough. I don't think I can continue integration like this - either I have to solve it quickly, re-home Pepper, or I need to come up with a way of seperating them (which is fine for a week or 2 but practically isn't an option in our run for the long term).

So... any ideas?
Things that'll help them settle, distract Pepper..... they sleep together at night just fine, it just starts over again every morning with the unpredictable bullying.
How likely is the chick to die of stress? If it's a possibility, then I won't risk continuing the integration, but if chickens don't die from stress easily then I'll put a load of extra hiding places in and give it another day or 2.....

This is the first time I've owned chickens and no matter how much I read up on it, it doesn't prepare me for some of the difficulties I'm coming accross!

 

[Mrs. K]

You are trying a hard integration, as you have, no doubt figured out. ugh!

When one integrates new birds, I think of it as a plus and minus game.

Bigger is +, smaller is -
Older is +, younger is -
Home turf is +, strangers are -
More numbers in the group is +, less numbers in the group is -
Some breeds are more aggressive, some breeds are less aggressive.

You can see that right now, your older girls have all the advantage. When you are working with very small numbers, the birds need to be the same size, or the little ones will take the brunt of it. Make sure there are a lot of hideouts in your run, where the birds can get away from each other, and stay out of sight of each other. Perhaps something like a picket fence or a pallet, where the smaller birds can get through, and the bigger ones can not. The older bird can and probably will kill the smaller bird, especially as the smaller bird has given up, unless you get them apart. You might pull the bully, put her into the rabbit hutch for two weeks, and see if you can get the three others to bond. The bully will have to come back and readjust the pecking order, but sometimes that will work, as then it is three against one.

In the future, try these tricks....... add more numbers of the smaller chicks, like double the number of the older chickens...... until the flock calms down, then sell the point of lay chickens to get your numbers down. Move the older chickens out of the coop/run for two weeks, letting the younger chickens be there and establish a bit of home turf. However, the best way is to have a broody hen, let her be broody for a couple of weeks, and buy her some chicks....... she takes care of the rest!

Mrs K

 

[birdlady79]

If you have experience with integrating flocks/chicks and dealt with all the associated problems, I could really use some help and advice!

In March, I had 2 x 1yr old chickens (Dutch Bantam and Plymouth Rock Bantam) in a run outside, and 3 older chicks (8wks old - Cochin and Brahma Bantams) in a rabbit hutch.

The 3 large chicks were getting too big for the indoor rabbit hutch, so I started integration:
   - 3weeks in the rabbit hutch, next to/inside the big run
  -  2-3 weeks I sectioned off half the run for the chicks to have
  -  When all calmed down and they were able to feed/sleep next to the chicken wire without problems, I removed the wire (kept 2 food bowls, 2 water bowls and 2 sleeping areas). At the same time, I also had to re-home the Dutch Bantam (too noisy for the neighbours).

This left just my Plymouth rock bantam (Pepper) and the 3 chicks (now about 4 or 5 months old). She chased the chicks round, few pecks, several feathers pulled, but luckily only 1 bloody feather pulled. The chicks mostly ran and hid, and stuck together like glue. This seemed pretty normal from what I've been reading, and I was expecting a 2 week re-structuring period for the new flock. Then as things seemed to quieten a little, 1 chick died.

2-3 weeks later, and I'm STILL having issues. Pepper is still bullying the 2 remaining younger ones.

She pecks them quite viciously: on and off, very unpredictably, throughout the day. I can't see any real reason for her outbursts; the chicks keep themselves to themselves.

The chicks have a small hiding place, which they sometimes use, only coming out again when I'm there.

Confusingly, they sometimes get along just fine... for hours! And I think maybe it's nearly over, but then Pepper suddenly has an outburst, and I find them cowering in a corner with their heads down, cheeping - it's just heart breaking.
They genuinly seem scared of her. Whenever Pepper moves in the run, the chicks immediatly start watching incase she comes over.

More recently, I've noticed her picking on 1 chick more than the other. This poor chick has started looking sorry for herself and I think it's the stress. She still eats/drinks/poos, but doesn't peck around/interested in everything. Do chickens get stressed?
Now, when Pepper decides to attack her, she tries to run, then seems to run out of energy and just lies down and lets Pepper pluck as many feathers as she likes. No serious blood yet (I check every time) but my heart just breaks. when I hear the commotion and go out to find her lying in a crumpled heap, sometimes with Pepper still going for her...... :-( it can't be right. Surely this isn't normal? Surely the chicks should be able to run away or defend themselves.

Anyway, this is what's making me think enough is enough. I don't think I can continue integration like this - either I have to solve it quickly, re-home Pepper, or I need to come up with a way of seperating them (which is fine for a week or 2 but practically isn't an option in our run for the long term).

So... any ideas?
Things that'll help them settle, distract Pepper..... they sleep together at night just fine, it just starts over again every morning with the unpredictable bullying.
How likely is the chick to die of stress? If it's a possibility, then I won't risk continuing the integration, but if chickens don't die from stress easily then I'll put a load of extra hiding places in and give it another day or 2.....

This is the first time I've owned chickens and no matter how much I read up on it, it doesn't prepare me for some of the difficulties I'm coming accross!

I'm new as well, but I did just successfully integrated 2 smaller chickens around 5-3 weeks to a flock of 5 ... Hiding places are a must!!! It took 3 weeks, and on occassion 1 still gets pecked!! I have read where you can remove the bully hen and the others tend to stop pecking, then add her back in... My top 2 hens do the pecking.... I would start with hiding places, I sectioned a piece of my run off with chicken wire, the big ones couldn't get in but the 2 small ones could go in and out.... I would think stress can weaken the immune system ... Hopefully someone with more experience can chime in... I didn't believe it would work but the BYC helped me out and it worked great!! Good Luck!!

 

[aart]

You are trying a hard integration, as you have, no doubt figured out. ugh!

When one integrates new birds, I think of it as a plus and minus game.

Bigger is +, smaller is -
Older is +, younger is -
Home turf is +, strangers are -
More numbers in the group is +, less numbers in the group is -
Some breeds are more aggressive, some breeds are less aggressive.

You can see that right now, your older girls have all the advantage. When you are working with very small numbers, the birds need to be the same size, or the little ones will take the brunt of it. Make sure there are a lot of hideouts in your run, where the birds can get away from each other, and stay out of sight of each other. Perhaps something like a picket fence or a pallet, where the smaller birds can get through, and the bigger ones can not. The older bird can and probably will kill the smaller bird, especially as the smaller bird has given up, unless you get them apart. You might pull the bully, put her into the rabbit hutch for two weeks, and see if you can get the three others to bond. The bully will have to come back and readjust the pecking order, but sometimes that will work, as then it is three against one.

In the future, try these tricks....... add more numbers of the smaller chicks, like double the number of the older chickens...... until the flock calms down, then sell the point of lay chickens to get your numbers down. Move the older chickens out of the coop/run for two weeks, letting the younger chickens be there and establish a bit of home turf. However, the best way is to have a broody hen, let her be broody for a couple of weeks, and buy her some chicks....... she takes care of the rest!

Mrs K

Good advice, as always, from Mrs. K.....agrees pulling the bully for a time might help, at least everyone will get a break.

Hang in there jennirowlands! It's hard learning curve, and disturbing how vicious they can be, but fascinating to learn their world and worth it for the good parts.

 

[jennirowlands]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for all your comments and support. In the end I decided to move Pepper (the odler chicken) out. I tried re-homing her with my inlaws 2 chickens, who are bigger, but pretty close in size. How the tables have turned!!! Pepper is no longer the boss (yet)

I was worried about trying this, because they haven't the biggest run, but figured that if it went well she would have a much better time than in a rabbit hutch, and if all goes well, then she can stay there permanantly and I know she'll be well cared for.

We introduced her on Friday night... a lot of noise and a few pecks from the existing "boss".... but only 1 really nasty scuffle. Since then it's geting quieter every day - I'm absolutly amazed! Seems that Pepper can hold her own though she's learning quickly that she gets a peck if she crosses the path of the big boss. nothing too nasty since the first night, and she's started accepting lettuce treats from us again. She's already content around the other chicken in the run and will sit next to her on a perch (or even crawl under her if the boss appears!!! Funny to watch bless her) So it's just the boss to look out for now. It looks like this integration is more evenly matched and I'm hoping in a week or 2 she'll be accepted.

Which leaves me with just my 2 4mth old chicks now! And another big (and growing problem)... I've made a seperate post for this in the emergency section. My Brahma Bantam has been getting increasingly reluctant to walk since Pepper left and I found the cause of the problem a couple of days ago - very swollen, sore looking feather shafts on the side of her left foot. I'm pretty sure it's not bumblefoot (thankfully) but can't find any refernece online to split/infected/swollen feather shafts on the feet of a chicken.

If you could take a look at my other post/photo I'd be really greatful!

Oh the stress of owning chickens! I love them dearly and it breaks my heart when they are sick or unhappy!

Jenni