Hmmm, I might have to try that. And judges dont mind them?
Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion
- Thread starter Hurley
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #1,792
I am in agreement that I don't think we should change the plan as far as pursuing the silver penciled and birchen varieties, keep the small pockets of other varieties as you wish and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but I think we should seriously think about changing our name "Birchen" to "Grey". Birchen has a very specific appearance to judges and those showing them and they severely fault any lacing on the breast and upper neck. This is counterproductive to what we are attempting to achieve in our Birchens. We've all (as far as I know) decided that more lacing is better, and I've had a couple judges suggest (strongly) that grey would be a more appropriate name for them.
Take a look at the standard for Gray Plumage, and contrast that to the Birchen Standard and to our standard for the "birchen".
GRAY PLUMAGE
BIRCHEN PLUMAGE
Color of Male
Color of Male
NECK: Hackle – silvery white with slender black stripe through middle of each feather, terminating in a point short of its lower extremity, to match saddle.
Front of neck – same as breast.
(Lustrous black, each feather evenly laced with silvery white.)
BACK: White, with silver luster.
TAIL: Main tail – black.
Sickles & Lesser Sickles – black, with brilliant greenish sheen.
Coverts – brilliant greenish black.
WINGS: Shoulders & Fronts – black.
Bows – white with silver luster.
Coverts – brilliant black, forming a distinct bar across wing.
Primaries – black.
Secondaries – black, exposed portion of outer web forming wing bay, brilliant black.
BREAST: Lustrous black, each feather evenly laced with silvery white.
BODY, STERN & LOWER THIGHS: Black.
UNDERCOLOR: Dull slaty black.
HEAD: Plumage, White.
NECK: Hackle - white, with narrow, dark stripes through middle of each feather, terminating in a point near its lower extremity.
Front of Neck - black with very narrow lacing of white.
BACK: White. Saddle - white with narrow, black stripe through middle of each feather.
TAIL: Main Tail - black.
Sickles and Coverts - lustrous black.
WINGS: Shoulders - black.
Fronts - black.
Bows - white.
Coverts - glossy black.
Primaries and Secondaries - black.
BREAST: Upper Breast - black with very narrow lacing of white.
Lower breast - black.
BODY AND STERN: Black.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower Thighs - black. Shanks and Toes - black.
HEAD: Plumage, White.
NECK: Hackle – black with heavy white lacing giving an overall white appearance to the hackle.
Front of neck – black with white lacing.
BACK: White.
Saddle – black with heavy white lacing matching the hackles in pattern. Shafting permitted.
TAIL: Main Tail – web, black.
Main and Lesser Sickles – Lustrous black with a bluish sheen.
Coverts – Black.
WINGS: Glossy black with bluish luster.
Shoulders and Fronts - black.
Bows - white.
Coverts, Primaries, and Secondaries - black.
BREAST: Upper breast – black with heavy lacing of white.
Lower breast – black with white lacing.
BODY AND FLUFF: Body – black.
Fluff – black, slight tinge of gray permissible.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower thighs – black.
Shanks and Toes – dark willow.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS: Slate.
Color of Female
NECK: Hackle – black with narrow white lacing.
Front of neck – same as breast.
(Black , each feather evenly laced with white.)
BACK: Black.
TAIL: Main Tail – black.
Coverts – black with some luster.
WINGS: Shoulders, Fronts & Bows – black.
Coverts – black with some luster.
Primaries – dull black.
Secondaries – black, exposed portion of outer web forming wing bay, black with some luster.
BREAST: Black, each feather evenly laced with white.
BODY, STERN & LOWER THIGHS: Black.
UNDERCOLOR: Dull slaty black.
NECK: White, with narrow, dark stripe through jmiddle of each feather, terminating in a point near its extremity.
Front of neck - black with very narrow lacing of white.
BACK: Black.
TAIL: Black.
WINGS: Black.
BREAST: Upper Breast - black with very narrow lacing of white.
Lower Breast - black.
BODY AND STERN: Black.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower Thighs - black.
Shank and Toes - Black.
HEAD: Plumage, White.
NECK: Hackle – black with heavy white lacing.
Front of Neck – black with white lacing.
BACK: Black.
TAIL: Black.
WINGS: Black.
BREAST: Black with white lacing extending to the lower breast.
BODY AND FLUFF: Body – black.
Fluff – black, slight tinge of gray permissible.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower thighs – black.
Shanks and Toes – dark willow.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS: Slate.
Kari's image as an example of where we are headed with our "birchen" coloration-----^
In speaking with the judges, they said that the biggest difference between "Gray" and "Birchen" in their minds was the breast lacing. Birchens should not have it extend onto the breast (and this appears to be a big deal in those breeds with birchen for a color variety). This means, to me, that we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot calling the variety "Birchen" and then stressing "anti-birchen" lacing extending down the breast.
Gray does not mean these birds won't be black. It doesn't mean all the "birchens" out there will cease to be in the variety, it just better describes the look we are going for as well as being less confusing for judges and less likely to get nicely laced birds dinged for too heavy lacing for a "birchen" variety.
I've also posted a thread on The Classroom at The Coop for their opinions on the genetic makeup of our birds. We'll see if we can get some more feedback from the academics as there. They have lots of discussions on the appearances of various combinations of genes as well as DNA sequencing, etc.
Take a look at the standard for Gray Plumage, and contrast that to the Birchen Standard and to our standard for the "birchen".
GRAY PLUMAGE
BIRCHEN PLUMAGE
OUR STANDARD
Color of Male
Color of Male
Color of Male
HEAD: White with silver luster.
NECK: Hackle – silvery white with slender black stripe through middle of each feather, terminating in a point short of its lower extremity, to match saddle.
Front of neck – same as breast.
(Lustrous black, each feather evenly laced with silvery white.)
BACK: White, with silver luster.
TAIL: Main tail – black.
Sickles & Lesser Sickles – black, with brilliant greenish sheen.
Coverts – brilliant greenish black.
WINGS: Shoulders & Fronts – black.
Bows – white with silver luster.
Coverts – brilliant black, forming a distinct bar across wing.
Primaries – black.
Secondaries – black, exposed portion of outer web forming wing bay, brilliant black.
BREAST: Lustrous black, each feather evenly laced with silvery white.
BODY, STERN & LOWER THIGHS: Black.
UNDERCOLOR: Dull slaty black.
HEAD: Plumage, White.
NECK: Hackle - white, with narrow, dark stripes through middle of each feather, terminating in a point near its lower extremity.
Front of Neck - black with very narrow lacing of white.
BACK: White. Saddle - white with narrow, black stripe through middle of each feather.
TAIL: Main Tail - black.
Sickles and Coverts - lustrous black.
WINGS: Shoulders - black.
Fronts - black.
Bows - white.
Coverts - glossy black.
Primaries and Secondaries - black.
BREAST: Upper Breast - black with very narrow lacing of white.
Lower breast - black.
BODY AND STERN: Black.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower Thighs - black. Shanks and Toes - black.
HEAD: Plumage, White.
NECK: Hackle – black with heavy white lacing giving an overall white appearance to the hackle.
Front of neck – black with white lacing.
BACK: White.
Saddle – black with heavy white lacing matching the hackles in pattern. Shafting permitted.
TAIL: Main Tail – web, black.
Main and Lesser Sickles – Lustrous black with a bluish sheen.
Coverts – Black.
WINGS: Glossy black with bluish luster.
Shoulders and Fronts - black.
Bows - white.
Coverts, Primaries, and Secondaries - black.
BREAST: Upper breast – black with heavy lacing of white.
Lower breast – black with white lacing.
BODY AND FLUFF: Body – black.
Fluff – black, slight tinge of gray permissible.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower thighs – black.
Shanks and Toes – dark willow.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS: Slate.
Color of Female
Color of Female
Color of Female
HEAD: White
NECK: Hackle – black with narrow white lacing.
Front of neck – same as breast.
(Black , each feather evenly laced with white.)
BACK: Black.
TAIL: Main Tail – black.
Coverts – black with some luster.
WINGS: Shoulders, Fronts & Bows – black.
Coverts – black with some luster.
Primaries – dull black.
Secondaries – black, exposed portion of outer web forming wing bay, black with some luster.
BREAST: Black, each feather evenly laced with white.
BODY, STERN & LOWER THIGHS: Black.
UNDERCOLOR: Dull slaty black.
HEAD: Plumage, white.
NECK: White, with narrow, dark stripe through jmiddle of each feather, terminating in a point near its extremity.
Front of neck - black with very narrow lacing of white.
BACK: Black.
TAIL: Black.
WINGS: Black.
BREAST: Upper Breast - black with very narrow lacing of white.
Lower Breast - black.
BODY AND STERN: Black.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower Thighs - black.
Shank and Toes - Black.
HEAD: Plumage, White.
NECK: Hackle – black with heavy white lacing.
Front of Neck – black with white lacing.
BACK: Black.
TAIL: Black.
WINGS: Black.
BREAST: Black with white lacing extending to the lower breast.
BODY AND FLUFF: Body – black.
Fluff – black, slight tinge of gray permissible.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower thighs – black.
Shanks and Toes – dark willow.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS: Slate.
Kari's image as an example of where we are headed with our "birchen" coloration-----^
In speaking with the judges, they said that the biggest difference between "Gray" and "Birchen" in their minds was the breast lacing. Birchens should not have it extend onto the breast (and this appears to be a big deal in those breeds with birchen for a color variety). This means, to me, that we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot calling the variety "Birchen" and then stressing "anti-birchen" lacing extending down the breast.
Gray does not mean these birds won't be black. It doesn't mean all the "birchens" out there will cease to be in the variety, it just better describes the look we are going for as well as being less confusing for judges and less likely to get nicely laced birds dinged for too heavy lacing for a "birchen" variety.
I've also posted a thread on The Classroom at The Coop for their opinions on the genetic makeup of our birds. We'll see if we can get some more feedback from the academics as there. They have lots of discussions on the appearances of various combinations of genes as well as DNA sequencing, etc.
- Thread starter
- #1,793
They didn't seem to. I find it actually more attractive than the legbands as in adults you don't see them (they are under the feathers).
One downside is you can't read the number without picking up the bird and moving the feathers.
I figure if I really need to tag them to identify visually I can add a leg band, but at least their id number stays consistent throughout their lifetime.
I think I'll do it then. Where did you get yours from?
- Thread starter
- #1,795
I got mine from Randall Burkey. The Jiffy style is what I got, which uses pliers specific to those bands. I like them, though you have to be a little careful not to dislodge the band or crimp it prematurely. If it's not in position in the pliers, it won't lock correctly.
Day old chicks can be banded, though your spot to hit is small. By 1 week they are much bigger and easier to band if you are uneasy.
Here is a diagram showing anatomy in the site where you attach the band, which is for all intents and purposes an earring for the wing. You want to hit the triangle between the humerus, radius, and patagial tendon. This triangle is basically 2 layers of skin without much else between. Just stay behind the tendon, in front of the muscle. Easiest to do when the wing is partially extended.
I altered this image to add the tendon (green), muscles (red), and the area to band (yellow) to show placement:
Day old chicks can be banded, though your spot to hit is small. By 1 week they are much bigger and easier to band if you are uneasy.
Here is a diagram showing anatomy in the site where you attach the band, which is for all intents and purposes an earring for the wing. You want to hit the triangle between the humerus, radius, and patagial tendon. This triangle is basically 2 layers of skin without much else between. Just stay behind the tendon, in front of the muscle. Easiest to do when the wing is partially extended.
I altered this image to add the tendon (green), muscles (red), and the area to band (yellow) to show placement:
I was looking at that style too from meyer hatchery. its instructions imply you cant band an adult bird or any birds over 2 weeks?
- Thread starter
- #1,797
So far feedback I've received from inquiries on the coloration of our birds has been that our varieties would best be described at Gray (for Birchen) and Mealy Gray (for Silver Penciled) for color varieties. I have not found a "Mealy Gray" standard in the APA SOP, anyone with a ABA standard see it listed in there?
- Thread starter
- #1,798
I've banded every age without an issue including a larger turkey with the current one I have.
The ones that you use your fingers to push them through the wing I think are best suited to young chicks, but the Jiffy bands I use I've used on all ages.
The ones that you use your fingers to push them through the wing I think are best suited to young chicks, but the Jiffy bands I use I've used on all ages.
Thanks Connie for your input on this, to me it seems very clear that the Gray is a better discriptor then the Birchen, I think that we should go with the Gray in place of the Birchen.
X2
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