Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[WVDan44]

Got a couple pics (sorry, not great ones) that show the shoulders on one of the roosters. Head is to the left, wings below. You can see that rustiness there that really only appeared this year (2nd year). In the past I just assumed he was split to gold as he was slightly yellow over the saddle, but after reading this latest tidbit wonder if he the effect isn't due to Ap instead. Think I'd rather have it be gold, easier to make go away, lol.

Hi Connie

I do not claim to know anything, but perhaps the following text I found re: Autosomal Pheomelanin or Ap is appropriate to the subject?.

I'm somewhat paraphrasing here: This form of pheomelanin is not on the s-allele and is not affected by S (silver). This form of pheomelanin is found in the entire body of eWh wheaten e-allele hens and is present as Ap or ap+ in all of the e-allele mutations. Ap is a dominant gene with variable expression and incomplete dominance in the heterozygous state (Ap/ap+) which has been called autosomal red by some geneticists.. The mutation of Ap is ap+, the absence of the Ap gene, which allows for dilution effects. While Ap does have some effect on all pheomelanic areas, it's greatest effect is seen in the body, with the fullest saturation in the breast of hens (masked by eumelanin in males) the back and shoulder (wing bow) areas.

The text goes on to say that sex-linked pheomelanin dominates the areas of hackle, saddle, and wing feathers so the effect of Ap in these areas is much less than in the aforementioned body areas.

I would like to find out more about the interactions of Ap-ap+ and S-s+ with e-alleles and the modifiers that can give us the perfect combo or play havoc with our colors. I just need more hours in a day to do research into what's been written about these areas. I'm so happy to see you sharing your findings as you turn up appropriate info on this.

 

[karimw]

We definately have the autosomal Red too, but that shows up as red on the breast of Silver Penciled females and rich red on the wings of the males. I suppose it could cause brassiness too, but that can be caused by other things as well. Either way our goal is to get rid of all of that.

On these guys you can see the gold clearly, as well as the reddish color on pure IaB boy in the back/center and the cross on the left.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Great discussion everyone! I see I've missed a lot of action yesterday.......

I don't want to stop the discussion on the Ap and autosomal red, so keep that going. However, I'm going to direct a question to Connie on her findings concerning the gene Db.

So here goes Connie. Can we have solid colored chocolate chicks without the Db gene being present? Also, if we breed for a silver penciled hen like Kari's #1 (that we all really liked when we were out to her place), would we be breeding away from the solid chicks to the mottles/striped chicks? I wouldn't want to inadvertantly eliminate part of the genome that made the breed unique. I don't know of any other breed that consistantly hatches solid chocolate chicks that aren't chocolate birds (ex. chocolate orpington).
Also of interest are the hens that show a barring in the tail feathers. Kari has two or three silver hens with this barring evident and I remember some of my old hens carrying that expression as well. Wouldn't that also be indicative of Db?

My thoughts are still that the Db is present (by no means in all the birds anymore do to outcrossing with other breeds), but that we had another gene that was breaking up the barring and allowing a penciling to manifest.

Another point of note, is Thane Earl's comments that he was surpised to find the Iowa Blue pattern to be a stable pattern. That would indicate that there was more going on than simply a mealy lacing pattern. But a delicate balance between the lacing of the silver penciling and barring of the autosomal barring would be reason for an experienced breeder to stop and take notice, and then share his thoughts concerning his surprise at what he was seeing.

I understand we are so close to wrapping up our standard and I certainly do not want to "stir the pot". I do want to make sure that we have a solid understanding of what was going on before we accidentally knock something out of the breed that was vital to it's identity.

Now, all that said. I am particularly attracted, and prefer, the silver hen of Kari's (#1 that I referenced earlier) and would like to see a standard that resembles closely her color. I also really like the solid colored chocolate chicks that show no mottling. I want my cake and to eat it to. I want to know whether I can have both. What I'm reading is telling me that I cannot have both. To have that silver hen I referenced above, she can't possess Db, but to have the solid chocolate chicks they have to possess Db. So where do we go from here?

How should we view the hens with the slight barring on their tails when it comes to the standard? Those hens also possess the Db. So, I'm not feeling confused when it comes to the genes in play, but I am confused at which direction we should head towards. What are everyone's thoughts?

What are your preferences everyone?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Oh, and the Db greatly increases the presense of white on the hackle, back and sickles! Which aligns itself perfectly with the old breeders' descriptions of their cocks having a silver "mane" and the old pictures having cocks that were very white in the hackles. Also, many of the cocks in the old pics (if not all of the pics) look as though they don't have any black in their hackles. This would also fit the Db gene.

 

[Hurley]

Trust me, I've rolled around the thought that the Iowa Blue type we are after could be the result of heterozygous function, like 1 Db gene over the PG to cause the mealiness.

Unfortunately I have had trouble getting information on chick appearance relating to the genes, never find it in the same place. Most of what I've dug up is opinion and conjecture. Need to dig further, but admit my focus hasn't been chick down with this last run.

Reading about Ap (dominant red enhancing) and viewing loads of photos, I'm convinced that my rooster is displaying it and I've defintely seen it more prominent in previous culls. Nice thing about Dominants, once it's out, it's out.

No time to go over this fully right now, heading into surgery, but will review it later and continue discussion.

 

[karimw]

OK, Curt, if you are really making an argument that we need to select for solid chocolate chicks, I need to see one so we know what we are talking about. I've heard it mentioned but I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

Chick down is only going to give a pretty general idea of what the adult bird will look like. In Kent Whealy's history, he stated the chicks were very different, but "they would all end up looking the same". Phil Roe states that the chicks were a "solid Chestnut Color", but the hens had a "distinctive grey penciling pattern". To me this a contradiction. Either the hens weren't penciled, and we know they were, or the chicks were not truly solid, at least not like a Buff chick is solid.

I don't think the "solid chocolate colored chicks" are going to give the penciled pattern we want. Personally, I don't want a bird that looks like a Campine, though several of my hens clearly show some barred markings. If you agree that Glenn Drown's hen in Storey's guide is an example of what they should be, then the chicks should have a pattern or mottling to some degree, even though it may not be as obvious as the chipmunk types.

Just my 2 cents

 

[karimw]

On another note, I set 55 Iowa Blues eggs yesterday and re-sorted my breeding pens. I have the 3 best Birchen girls and all the SPs with Rex now, though I know some of the SP girls aren't really up to snuff. Still it should give us something to work with this spring until our silver babies grow up and we can afford to be picky.

Between me, Connie and Curt we have a lot of eggs cooking right now!

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Here's an example of a chick that is solid without any mottling..........but it's a Fayoumi pullet we bought.

I know it may seem that I've been drilling the chick down color lately, but I don't want everyone to think that I'm obsessed with it. I would prefer the hen color we've come to agreement on over the chick color. I just don't want us to loose a gene type we may want in the future. It would be a shame if in 10 years after we've selected the solid colored chicks out, to then have a need for them once we've gained a stronger understanding of the breed. I've been putting some pressure to discuss chick down because I think it is a vauable tool to understand what we've got going on in the adults.
That said, maybe the solid chicks are a type that needs to be selected out.........without a standard in place, there was definately plenty of wiggle room when it came to chick down and adult plumage pattern. By standardizing the breed we are effectively choosing which genes to keep and which to expel. This process is seen time and time again in all species. However, we have many examples of breeders that selected away from traits in their stock that inevitably were only to be found in that particular breed.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Here are three different colored chicks that I had hatch from some eggs I got from Kari. These are Iowa Blue x Silver Penciled Rock chicks. It looks like two are very silver based. But the last one has some nice brown coloring.
Kari- Any ideas as to how they will develop? I'm wondering if the first two will look like your three light colored chicks that are very white on the head and breast........

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

This hen clearly has the presence of Db in action! Notice the barring on her tail as well as the thick lacing on the chest. What I think is happening on her chest is this- Db wants to make her chest barred, but some other gene (Co?) blends the barring with the lacing. Her breast lacing is very thick, much thicker than say a silver penciled rock hen. I think this is a combination of the Db and possibly Co. Db desires to make thick white barrings, and as we can see on her breast, the white lacings are quite thick. Another note on Db, I have seen many Fayoumi as well as some Campines who, although they possess the Db gene homozygously, they are NOT barred. Rather they have a sort of random ticking throughout the sections of the body where the barring would, or should, exist.

Another observation I've seen on crossbred Co patterned stock is the presence of a mottled, mossy type of lacing on the back and sides of the body. Sometimes this mottled lacing (on adult plumage) is expressed on purebred columbian rocks/sussex. So, I don't think we can totaly rule out either the Db or the Co just yet. I'll see if I can find a pic of the columbian mossiness I'm talking about.