Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[IowaBlueCurt]

Also of note on the above hen........the lacing on her back and primaries show indistince lines rather than lacing, which also lends to the idea of a broken up Db expression.
This hen in the pic is one of the two or three hens Kari owns that express the barring on the body. These are also purebreds, and maybe Kari can share with us the down color these type of hens expressed. (I'm putting you on the spot now Kari! haha)

 

[karimw]

Here are three different colored chicks that I had hatch from some eggs I got from Kari. These are Iowa Blue x Silver Penciled Rock chicks. It looks like two are very silver based. But the last one has some nice brown coloring.
Kari- Any ideas as to how they will develop? I'm wondering if the first two will look like your three light colored chicks that are very white on the head and breast........

The top two chicks are like my light chicks, but they don't look like crosses to me yet. I guess they'll need to be a little older to tell for sure. If they are half Rock, the combs will show up quickly on both male and female.

 

[karimw]

Also of note on the above hen........the lacing on her back and primaries show indistince lines rather than lacing, which also lends to the idea of a broken up Db expression.
This hen in the pic is one of the two or three hens Kari owns that express the barring on the body. These are also purebreds, and maybe Kari can share with us the down color these type of hens expressed. (I'm putting you on the spot now Kari! haha)

This one could be her for all I know - same hatch anyway. It's kind of a dark picture, but there is mottling on her back to some degree.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Kari- in reference to your chick pic you posted, I would like to see that kind of mottling to solid in color. But not lighter or more mottled.

The three chicks that I posted are huge compared to the birchens that hatched out alongside them. With the lightest colored chick being the largest of the hatch.

 

[karimw]

I don't know Curt, all my chicks have always been marbled to some degree. I have never hatched what I would call a "solid" chocolate. Given that I can only use what I have to continue breeding. In any case, I want my hens to be light blue-silver with nice clean penciling on the breast and sides, and to get that I think I need to see marbling on the chicks.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I agree with you Kari. In order to get the nice lacing on the breast and sides you'll have to select for the marbled chicks. From what I've been learning, if you select the solid brown chicks, you'll get autosomal barring to some degree. From a stippled to clear barring. But solid brown Iowa Blue chicks were/are suppose to have a stippled/laced breast and (as best I can tell) look like the hen of yours that I just posted above, with minimal barring (with the barring limited to the tail).

Anyway, although I've been relentless with all this chick down color, I am completely supportive of the direction our committee is moving down when it comes to the silver coloring on the hens. If that means we move away from any solid colored chicks and select for mottled/marbled brown chicks, then I'm all for it. I just wanted to bring the issue up to everyone involved with the breeding of these birds to make sure that if others felt the solid brown chicks were of particular interest in preserving, that we take care to do so before we lose them altogether.

Has anyone currently breeding Iowa Blues (besides Glenn Drowns) hatched a solid brown chick like the Fayoumi I posted earlier? I know Glenn has hatched a few and mentioned that if anyone were to obtain a hatch where ALL the chicks were solid brown, that he would personally drive to that person's farm an see the chicks for himself. He said it has been over a decade since he's seen a clutch where all the chicks were solid brown. Another interesting note, was Glenn, Phil Roe, and Lee Zook have all mentioned that the solid brown chicks were the desireable ones to breed for. So, for some reason, past breeders prefered the solid browns..............some food for thought as we proceed on.

 

[Hurley]

I have hatched a couple in the past that were solid cocoa without marbling. For the most part, though I have the birchen chicks (ranging from almost solid black to large splotches of yellow on belly/chin/wings) and in the past had the "chipmunk chicks", the typical brown/cocoa ones with broken up mottled striped down their back. I have never hatched any of the wild type/yellow chicks.

I think, quite honestly, that the chipmunk chicks (i.e. the cocoa brown with mottling) are the chicks most often attributed to the breed and the ones destined to make the penciled birds. That being said, if I get a solid chocolate chick, darn sure I'll raise it out to see what it turns into! Wouldn't cull it right away until I explore the possibilities.

I can't discount the potential for the Db gene to be floating about, especially given the outcrosses performed to save the breed, but I don't think we should be breeding to a barred appearance and really think breeding toward a heterozygous state (one Db gene to disperse the pattern) would be a disaster in the making. I would really prefer not to get in the situation like the partridge cock breeders that have to keep 1 gene of the white in there to make the "proper" lemon hackles. What a pain! Would much rather get us to a homozygous state of some sort that is reproducible and true to what we have dug up. That Storey's bird certainly looks all penciled. I think you can selectively breed towards "poorer" pencilling with the pattern more soft/dispersed to give the blue look we covet. I would expect the breast would be the last to disperse, so should be able to breed towards a silver penciled bird that shows diffusion towards the tail with soft lacing on the breast. As I said before, if you get too "good" with the pencilling, too sharp, you will loose the blue we are going after and will turn the hens into a black and white bird.

 

[Hurley]

Off topic, but got a nice big pullet egg from my Birchen quad from this fall/winter. Unfortunately Tyler "helped" momma by dumping all the eggs onto the floor, but the yolk was very pretty orange.

Looks like it's time to move that quad up to the big pen and move the old rooster out. The silver trio are starting to molt, too, and are looking great. They're still hanging out in the office here in their huge aquarium, happy as clams.

Sad news, too, lost the pretty hen today. Knew it was coming, she lost circulation to her whole right foot and wasn't looking good. Tried to baby her as much as I could, but it took its toll. Not sure how she managed it, but looked like she frost bit the leg or otherwise lost the circulation. No string or any wounds. Rest of her looked fine. So sad to see her go, but have some of her kids growing out.

 

[WVDan44]

This hen clearly has the presence of Db in action! Notice the barring on her tail as well as the thick lacing on the chest. What I think is happening on her chest is this- Db wants to make her chest barred, but some other gene (Co?) blends the barring with the lacing. Her breast lacing is very thick, much thicker than say a silver penciled rock hen. I think this is a combination of the Db and possibly Co. Db desires to make thick white barrings, and as we can see on her breast, the white lacings are quite thick. Another note on Db, I have seen many Fayoumi as well as some Campines who, although they possess the Db gene homozygously, they are NOT barred. Rather they have a sort of random ticking throughout the sections of the body where the barring would, or should, exist.

Another observation I've seen on crossbred Co patterned stock is the presence of a mottled, mossy type of lacing on the back and sides of the body. Sometimes this mottled lacing (on adult plumage) is expressed on purebred columbian rocks/sussex. So, I don't think we can totaly rule out either the Db or the Co just yet. I'll see if I can find a pic of the columbian mossiness I'm talking about.

eb Pg Db is the feather pattern and modifier that creates penciling I believe. As I understand it, (please correct me if I'm wrong) Db and Co with Pg have similarities that can be confusing, however there are distinct differences i.e. Db and Co create different shades in recombinant with s+. Co is more effective than Db in the extension of pheomelanin, while Db shows a wider range of penetrance than Co. Heterozyhgotes can show a wide variation and highly variable penetration. This according to some research material I found.

Now you mention mottling here, and in my studies I see the mottling gene referred to as mo, a diluter that also creates barring. However, I do not have enough information about it to suggest that it is at work in this case. One researcher notes that mo creates a white feather tip with a black bar berhind the white spot on pheomelanic feathers but the black bar is not visible on the eumelanic feathers even though it is there. Quite difficult for me to grasp..and probably not appropriate to the barring you are talking about? I don't see white spots on the feather tips in your photo.

 

[Jake Levi]

Love this discussion, more please !

As an addenda to this, can anyone post 'before and after' pics of chicks, and then the same again after the first molt? And then the discussion on the genes and how they are expressed?

I am really looking forward to hatching and growing out my own flock. I am building some combo nella brooders/pens with runs now. This summer they go into their own chicken coop with run, and several days a week of ranging.