Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[IowaBlueCurt]

Don't be discouraged! We'll get this figured out and we'll have our standard set before too long. Then it'll be all worth it! A benefit is that we're getting a lot of good conversation out of it.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Check out this purebred British Fayoumi. Almost no autosomal barring present. She looks like a light version of our hens. Notice also the mealiness in the tail and back half of her body. In fact, her type looks very much like our Iowa Blue hens as well. (head and tail especially)

This Fayoumi also exhibits similar patterning to our hens with the only visible barring on her legs. Take a look at her laced breast and mealy back half/tail.

Here's a purebred Silver Campine showing that Db doesn't have to exhibit barring. This hen has a nice stippling happening.

How compare the upper breast feathers on these two hens. The first is a hen of Kari's and the second a purebred Fayoumi


Can you see the similarity of the breast lacing?

I posted these pics because they show that Db doesn't have to produce a barring pattern, but can be disrupted with the proper modifiers. I'm still thinking that some of our birds definately exhibit the Db gene and I'm still confident that the early birds (based of the pics we have of Michael Moore's and Ransome Bolson's purebred flocks) exhibited this same gene. I believe that the Db gene was not exhibited as barring (with the exception to the limits of the tail) because modifiers (or possibly Co) were breaking up the barring.

 

[Hurley]

I still don't understand why Db isn't showing up on the birchens. They're all from the same parent stock, just makes no sense that only the eb's show Db pattern but the ERs do not. The ERs will spread out the black barring more with their restricted extension power, but shouldn't lose the barring entirely.

I agree the patterns are similar, except that ours very much show more pencilling tendencies, but the lack of pattern on the birchens confuses me. From what I've been able to find, DB should cause patterning on the ERs, too.

The photo below was the one I could find of an ER bird with Db.

I still have a problem with one thing, regarding the presence of Db in our guys.
In the birchen birds, when you put Db over birchen, you should get this...
(Imagine it as a silver bird for our purposes.)

We haven't seen anything like this, and we've got these Silver and Birchen birds coming out of the same lines with tons of Birchens produced. Db shouldn't just select to show on the eb birds and not the ER. Kari, in your now heavily laced Birchens, are you seeing anything like this?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

So what is everyone's thoughts on this matter?
I would like to pose a question to everyone out here.......what would you like to see in your silver penciled Iowa Blues?

I am personally ok with either of the two "main" (if we can call them that) silver patterns that we are seeing.
Type 1- (Pg+eb+S)
Type 2- Here's the confusing part as there are different possibilities to produce this type.
(Pg+eb+S+Db (with or without Co))
(Pg+E+S+Db (with or without Co))

Which way does everyone think we should go? It sounds like the prevailing thought is to pursue the (Pg+eb+S). If we pursue the first type, how should the club respond to type 2 birds? Should they be ruled out as a possibility, or should they be placed in a situation like the birchen? The birchen being an accepted color, but 2nd in preference to the silver penciled?

In other words, if we standardize type 1 should type 2 be an accepted color, yielding to type one in prefernce? Or would that be to confusing for new breeders unaware of the genetic complexities? I would think if there were enough pictures defining the differences on our website, with descriptions of the genetic differences, we could easily educate future breeders as to various options our breed has to offer.

Everyone, sound off and share your thoughts so we can come together and work on forming a concensus that we all can support.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Connie- According to the descriptions of color inheritance per the chicken calculator, it states that with the certain modifiers present, E and Db can counter eachother and produce a bird without distinct barring. So, that's what's caused be to run with this........ Is it possible when the Leghorn was introduced by Ideal that a gene was added that muted the effects of Db when the birchen was present? Just a theory.......I imagine the black leghorn is where we got the autosomal red from!!!

Without Db- how can we have barring in our birds? Particulary the tail and sickles? As well as the solid white hackles and back in the original birds? Can the lacing be broken up to look speckled without Db like the hens in the early black and white photos?

 

[Hurley]

In looking at my juvenile birchens here, I can see no barring on the ones that show white lacing without brown. On the ones with the brown mossiness (that generally but not always goes away on adults) I can see faint barring of the brown near the tail.

In looking at these juvenile silvers, I fine variations from penciling to barring.
These feathers are some feathers I found and a couple donated showing feathers that are growing in now. Top and bottom feathers are old feathers, middle two are new.
Posted here mostly for grins and because I had them after handling and cleaning cages.

Feather 1 is a mixmash of mottled color, trending towards pencilling with bar like splotches.
Feather 2 is a neck feather showing some barring at the tip moving to pencilling forming.
Feather 3 is a hackle feather off the cockerel showing lacing of the distal 50% of the feather, no barring.
Feather 4 is a body feather that is an old feather showing barring much like many of the old feathers that they are currently molting.

 

[WVDan44]

So what is everyone's thoughts on this matter?
I would like to pose a question to everyone out here.......what would you like to see in your silver penciled Iowa Blues?

I am personally ok with either of the two "main" (if we can call them that) silver patterns that we are seeing.
Type 1- (Pg+eb+S)
Type 2- Here's the confusing part as there are different possibilities to produce this type.
(Pg+eb+S+Db (with or without Co))
(Pg+E+S+Db (with or without Co))

Which way does everyone think we should go? It sounds like the prevailing thought is to pursue the (Pg+eb+S). If we pursue the first type, how should the club respond to type 2 birds? Should they be ruled out as a possibility, or should they be placed in a situation like the birchen? The birchen being an accepted color, but 2nd in preference to the silver penciled?

In other words, if we standardize type 1 should type 2 be an accepted color, yielding to type one in prefernce? Or would that be to confusing for new breeders unaware of the genetic complexities? I would think if there were enough pictures defining the differences on our website, with descriptions of the genetic differences, we could easily educate future breeders as to various options our breed has to offer.

Everyone, sound off and share your thoughts so we can come together and work on forming a concensus that we all can support.

What about ap+/ap+ with respect to Connie's desire to rid the genome of Ap? Is this bit expressed in the full equation ? How does it work its way out unless there is heavy outcrossing? What breed now exhibits the most desirable (and stable) silver pencil pattern - rocks, hamburgs, campines, fayoumi....? Stability of pattern and color is where we are at the moment in our planning.

So many questions...one more can't hurt...LOL Would someone please post a modern day photo of an excellent example of an IB SP Cockerel/Cock bird? Thanks in advance!

 

[karimw]

What about ap+/ap+ with respect to Connie's desire to rid the genome of Ap? Is this bit expressed in the full equation ? How does it work its way out unless there is heavy outcrossing? What breed now exhibits the most desirable (and stable) silver pencil pattern - rocks, hamburgs, campines, fayoumi....? Stability of pattern and color is where we are at the moment in our planning.

So many questions...one more can't hurt...LOL Would someone please post a modern day photo of an excellent example of an IB SP Cockerel/Cock bird? Thanks in advance!

If you were to write out the whole thing it would be ap+/ap+. It does lurk in the hens some, but I've been able to cull most of it out of my flock. That's why I don't have an SP cock at the moment. I lost the only one I had without it at a young age.

The one thing about the SPs is the Crow wing vs duck wing. How do you get black wings on an SP bird?

 

[karimw]

OK, I have to sound off cause I think it will be really good for the breed. Check out the March/April Hobby Farm magazine Annual Poultry issue!
Page 36



I was happy to see they used what Connie wrote for the majority of the article. (page 40) The proposed SOP is a little outdated, but still it's great publicity! At least they used the "right" hens in the photo. At the time I sent them we didn't know what we do now and I had several Birchen hens included.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Ok, I was reading through our archive pages and stubbled across some information that will, I believe, greatly help us out with some of what we are seeing.

At one point Glenn Drowns' flock was down to one rooster and a few hens (from Phil Roe when Phil "sold out"). Glenn decided to breed a Silver Penciled Rock cock to Fayoumi (Pg/E/Db/Co and S) and Campine hens (Pg/eb/Db and S). He took these F1s and bred them to his flock. Knowing this, Db AND Co will be present in some of the birds and these two genes are flowing in the Sandhill Line. The question is not IF these genes are present, but where these genes present in the Iowa Blue BEFORE Glenn added in the Fayoumi and Campine. I believe yes, they were present based upon pictures of the purebred birds (before Glenn's outcrossing.)

Now, to Connie's concern as to why we don't have barring in our birchens. Ideal Hatchery bought some of Glenn's Silver Penciled x Fayoumi/Campine crosses and bred them to black leghorn with the goal of producing a birchen bird. In order for the birchen to breed true to color, they would have instantly culled any birds showing Db as Db would have shown up in the plumage as barring. (In varying degrees. Some looking like the Golden Campines Connie posted and some less barred). Considering that 99+ % of the birchens in existance are from Ideal Hatchery, it should be no surprize to us that we don't see Db in their stock.

When we get to a point where we are crossing Ideal line to Sandhill line, then we will see the Db crop up in the birchen colored chicks. But this will take a few generations to manifest. Kari has done this as her stock came from Ideal and Privitt (who drop ships some of their Iowa Blues from Sandhill). And I think the following birchen cockerel from Kari IS begining to show this effect.

Look at his breast. that is not a clear lacing, but looks to me like the Db in action!

Now, l I think we should standardize a silver penciled hen that is genotypically (Pg/eb/S with modifiers to create a mealiness in the tail and on the back), but I also think the club should recognize the birds who exhibit Db/Co, just like the club has recognized the birchen. I also think we should educate on the website (in time) the differences between (Pg/eb) and (Pg/eb/Db/Co) so that new breeders are informed, and can choose the right genetic combination to meet thier needs.