Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[Jake Levi]

Well, to mix metaphors, it seems to me that with the present numbers of birds that we have, the pros and cons that are going on strike me as those in a life boat boat arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Right now, to me, pros and cons seem major moot.

Looking in my pen, I have two distinctly different color morphs, and a variation that has little to do with either. And of course at their age I dont have a clue as to what the mature size will be. So, I am taking a wait and see mode, and see what I have before I decide what I am going to do. Period.

I would suggest that all reading this do likewise.

As those who have read my signature block know I like homestead breeds of chickens, dual purpose birds that lay well and provide meat. Anyone notice that color isnt involved in EITHER of those?

How many of you know what the egg production of your birds is on a yearly basis?

Right now I really dont give a good diddly squat what the colors of my birds are. I suspect that the first couple people to have any of these didnt either. Just my guess. Practicality in those days had more weight then fine points of color. As the birds became an identifiable strain then the colors became a handle to identify with. Just my guess. Having some idea of priorities of farmers of that era. Of which my immediate family were.

We seem to have a lot of definite opinions being expressed here, that seems a little precipitate to me. What I see us having is a maybe, not yet a definite maybe, just a general garden variety maybe.

Nuff, time to go out and feed my chicken mutts.

FWIW, I think that the Standard as proposed is an excellent start. Start. Not finish.

 

[WVDan44]

I don't know about private talks or secret info, all I know is what my Grandpa said "don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see" so that's how I tend to approach things. Connie, I can relate to your statement about being trained to delve into issues. I was once a news reporter for a newspaper (when there was actually reporting of news LOL) and I have this sometimes annoying way of asking questions and not being satisfied until I have hit upon the right little bit of info that I'm looking for...sometimes I don't know what that bit is until I find it.

Look, it may not seem to you that the two points of view are that far apart - and I know you have a familiarity with the personalities and history of the club and standard committee, but out here it does seem to be a widening gap, a great deal of it is the emotional response, I get it. I'm trying to see what makes everybody do what they do, feel what they feel, and in doing so, I see things that cause me to give substance to a person's passion so I'm trying to come up with answers instead of shrugging it off with disinterest. I feel you are trying to address it as well in your own way. I agree that we should do what we can to keep a good member by being willing to look at the issues that are upsetting. I don't think Curt is feeling this way to get attention for himself - I think he believes in what he says. Not knowing any of you personally makes it perhaps easier to treat the statements as what they are without being influenced by whether one is liked more than another.

Connie, you are the very first person I spoke with re: IBs so I've always had high regard for you and your well thought out posts. Curt impressed me with his friendliness to newbies and his bulldog approach to investigating the background of the breed. He seemed to do a stellar job with it. I never intended to make this a Connie vs Curt affair because I don't believe it is. Re: Curt, he seems to have regrets over voting to approve the current standard, wishes to stand up and say so, wants to revisit the standard and re-consider a bunch of details. I wish our elected political officials had the brass to admit to making an error in their judgement and stand up with courage and say so. I think that's what Curt is now doing. He was for it before he was against it but in a good and honest way. I may be wrong, I don't want to further divide, so I too will go count clovers and let it be for now.

Good luck with the pips! Hope you have a great hatch.

Dan

 

[WVDan44]

Hi Jake, you have some good points. I'm trying to be a homesteader as well, and I keep asking myself how many 4 lb. hens (live weight) will it take to feed my family at a meal, and how realistic is that. If dual purpose is an important facet of the IB, I for one would like to see at least this point addressed now, not in the future. I know that several members are gearing and tooling up to sell eggs and chicks and have invested in the standard, but this seems to be a relatively easy fix IMHO. We can say we are going to work toward a larger bird in the future, but the standard is what dictates that, thereby necessitating a change at this time. I don't see this as being a "cheeky" statement or a divisive one, it is merely an accurate and inconvenient truth we are facing because someone stood up and verbalized it. It won't matter to a pure homesteader because if you want a bigger chicken, you will outcross to get it. I'm hoping to have the best of both worlds, sort of a "chat and chew" kind of bird LOL that is showable and edible. That's just me and my opinion for what little it is worth.

 

[Hurley]

For what it's worth re: brass stepping up, all of my comments have been from me, personally, as a hobbyist and in no way have I stated I'm representing the "club's" position.


There seems to be a huge amount of strife about the weight as currently written. I haven't seen anyone argue FOR keeping the weights as listed, including myself. The current weights were a placeholder, to start based on what was known at the time. It appears based on what I've read here (and again, I'm not privy to apparently more recent appearances and weights discussed/visualized) that the flock with the strongest ties to the past is larger than the current standard and I believe my birds are larger, but the scale is in the mail so I haven't weighed them yet. We've all agreed we would like to see them larger, so stands to reason that the standard is going to change. As "keeper of the website/standard" currently, the reason I have not yet changed it is I don't have authority to just decide and change it. At the very least, I would think we need a discussion on what it SHOULD be, knowing what we know now, and then we vote and I can change it, just like the last revisions. No one is arguing it shouldn't be changed, that I can see, but it wouldn't be right for me to just change it without any kind of input. That would make me an overbearing shmuck, at the very least, in my own eyes and I don't wish to be a shmuck. So, meet, discuss, propose new weights, vote Aye, and I will change the weights as posted.

The same goes for the colors. The standard lists what we made with the best info we had at the time, trying not to exclude too much, trying to include everything we would with what we knew. I can't just change it without some sort of a vote/consensus, which is why it still reads BIrchen at this time, even though it seems at least everyone who has weighed in has agrees Birchen isn't likely what we want as the title of the darker variety.

The same goes for the revisions to type. We need specifics, we need the information, so we can try to get it right.

Shoot, even ASCA Australian Shepherd Club - founding club), who founded their standard decades ago and has been having shows long before AKC thought of bringing in Aussies just changed their standard this past year as they felt the breed was heading off in an unintended direction. There is no shame in changing the standard and to my knowledge no one has felt that. What we need is a meeting to go over each section that people have concern with, discuss and come to a resolution. Geography being what it is, a good time to do that would be at one of the shows to give a shot at getting people together. I can't just change it on my own, even if I wanted to.

The discussion here, initially, was intended to be a bit of a polling measure to let everyone have their input and express their views. It wasn't meant to be a duel. As I've said before, emotion from a post largely depends on the person reading it, regardless of intent of the writer. Let me clearly state that at no point in this thread have I intended to express animosity, nor am I trying to win votes for any side. I'm just trying to break it down, explore all the viewpoints, and am trying to decipher what it is that everyone wants. Specifically. If we all know where each other is coming from, it's easier to find the middle ground towards forming a standard we can all find useful.

On a side note: the reason I keep saying "I am" is not to be pompous or to uphold myself as some governing body, which I am not and do not wish to be, it's because I am trying very hard to represent me, not be the voice of the club, if that makes sense. I'm speaking as John Q. Chicken Owner.

My view on the club is it was not intended to be a governing body that tells each breeder what they have to do. It's an entity to allow the coming together of interested parties to share ideas, thoughts, make connections, and exchange information. The standard is a small offshoot of that and so far in my mind has had the positive effect of swinging general acceptance of the "color to have" from the Ideal dark birchens over to the penciled/mealy/gray/whatever you wish to call them more traditional type. This is a good step, yes? Now we're at a time where we're just starting to get some numbers grown up (and they are so early yet). Curt has said he's gained more info, which likely will play heavily in upcoming discussions/standards revisions if he doesn't elect to stop participating (which would be a serious shame). It seems to me (Connie, not IBCC) that it's a great time to start working that revision.

 

[Hurley]

By the way, I've got

! There were two out this am, a birchen and a silver penciled. I'm stoked because the birchens will all be from my pretty birchen gal x SP with that body behind them.

More pips sitting in there...and I installed a light that I can turn on INSIDE the incubator, which really helps with visualization. Woot!

 

[Jake Levi]

Lets hear it for a new and revised version !

I really dont have any cause in this, wherever the club flows I am with ya'll.

For a show meeting, I sorta assume it'd be an Iowa show, long drive, but outside chance on being able to go, depending on when and where, or even flying out. Need planning ahead time though.

In the meantime, I would suggest that each and everyone of us look at what we have, and, try to visualize what it is that we want in an Iowa Blue.

As I said previously, I have 3 color morphs, I am open to more, what the hey !

Right up front, I will go with the flow on final colors, all I am familiar with are fine with me, really, what I am concerned about is the homesteader qualities, meat quality, ranging ability, hardiness, and laying ability. I'll tell you next summer how mine are laying. We'll see on the others.

On the size I feel there is near general agreement it needs to increase. Myself I'd like to see a mature hen at 6lbs, and wouldnt object to going over. Roosters I'd like at a minimum of 9 lbs. Thats my own preference. I throw it out for consideration. But, size alone isnt all it takes to make a good meat bird, conformation is very important, I want to see a rooster having a nice brick shape, level back, chest, and breast. With legs spread far apart enough to hold that weight up and carry him around.

I also want to see that Rooster protective of his flock, I call them flockmeisters. Protect them, call them for food, and give a warning if there is danger.

The hens should have that brick shape too, goes with the size.

I am sure that they are going to have color, but, I amnot going to cull a great looking hen because her color is off. I frankly dont care what her color is, as long as she has the right conformation, produces eggs and some of them will raise clutches. I will depend on her consort to provide the color the flock is aiming for. We dont eat color.

Now an aside, early on when I was reading all of these back pages I read that Glenn Drowns had indeed used the Leghorn on his flock increasing. Until I read that I was planning on ordering some chicks from him, but, I donot want Leghorn influence in my flock, its a slow uphill battle overcoming that size. Been there, finally got it done.

I passed on the Ideal birds because of the lack of uniformity of a couple other breeds I'd got from them in days of yesteryore. So, I was down on both of the hatcherys available as a source of chicks, and began looking and reading to see who has some birds I could start with. So I was able to get some hatching eggs from Kari and dispite a disastrous hatch ( way high humidity) now have the handfull of no three of a kind out in the pen. A source of great interest, and fascination to watch the colors develop, almost daily. Two roosters, for sure, maybe a 3rd. Time will tell. All have a home, at least for a year or so to see how they mature, and then, to decide which way to go with them.

A lot of typing , to make one simple point, we have some real important things to decide on , before we throw the chicks out with the bath water. And these things are purely on the practical side, and color isnt anywhere involved. Lets concentrate on having a homestead breed of chicken. First.

One final point, Connie, you dont qualify to be a shmuck.

Sorry. Its a sexist thing. But it is what it is.

 

[Hurley]

Aw, come on now. Next you'll tell me I can't be JOHN Q. LOL

(And yep, I know the definition of the word shmuck...which made me chuckle when I typed it the first time. It's the little things. )

 

[ottbjumper06]

Excited for you Connie! I always love seeing pics on here (hint hint ;-)

 

[mrandmrschicken]

Excited for you Connie! I always love seeing pics on here (hint hint ;-)

Yes, lets see some of the new chick pics Connie.

 

[Hurley]

Will get some tonight when I get home. They weren't ready to come out of the incubator yet, so I had to slap my hands away and head to work.