Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[Hurley]

When I was prepping for the Mason City show, I had one pullet that (although she's never looked off before) show a pronounced wry tail during drying and when I was cooping in at the show. It seemed to be more of a submissive thing, than a true wry tail. I picked her up and depending on the way I would hold her could make her hold her tail wry left, straight, or wry right. They have big tails and they hold them high and expressively. Almost like a cat's tail, the tail seems to change dramatically with their mood.

I would grow it up before calling him a cull. Like Kari, I have not yet even remotely produced a cockerel that I am 100% happy with. I'm growing up a whole slew of them over the winter here to see what I have by spring.

We've got a lot of work to do, but that's the fun part. If the breed was perfect, quite frankly, they wouldn't have me as hooked as they do. It's the treasure hunt for the perfect beast...will keep me busy for years to come!



And p.s., my animlas currently all look like they've been through some hideous disaster. Tails are gone, necks are pin feathers, they're a motley site right now. Can't wait to see them in their new duds in a month or so!

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I'm totally on board with Connie and Kari here! I've had pullets particularly that will hold their tail to the side for days and I start to think their tail is coming in wry, but then after a week or so, the tail is then bend to the opposite side! Like Connie stated, their tail seems to be used as a form of expression. I'll see my pullets and hens checking out a bug or cat or something, and their tail will be moving side to side in anticipation! It's really quite commincal! But when they are alerted to a potentail danger, those tails all stick trait up like a whitetail deer.

And like Connie and Kari, I've yet to see a cockerel that is a great example of the breed as far as coloration and type goes. We've got some work there. Then hens are coming along nicely and we've seen some great strides there. Those boys though, we'll need to hammer those fellas out!

 

[Candy442]

I appreciate everyone's words of encouragement since I am very new to this breed.

I have to say that I am somewhat discouraged after hearing that tail or spinal issues may not be something that is focused on while reviving the breed. I know we need to give our birds time to possibly grow out of the apparent flaw and believe me they are not going to be destroyed one way or the other. I have yet to mark any of my flock for the "stew pot". After all, we treat the birds like children and just started with chicken keeping this last April for the first time in our life so starting for egg production means it's way too early for the "stew pot" for any of our babies.

It may be that none of the remaining flock is without the recessive for wry tail or other genetic issues but as a potential breeder--is everyone here saying it will be ok to continue breeding with these "possible" genetic flaws? I am thinking that is not the case.

I apologize if my questions created any problems, but I feel that I should make a conscious effort to try to set some basic breeding standards and not just throw caution to the wind unless you all who are making history for the Iowa Blue say otherwise. I am just a learner here and do not want to be irresponsible with this effort.

I was just hoping that there was a way to find out by genetic testing instead of using the "breeding" method through generations. Since we are so close to Michigan State University, I will contact them to see what is possible, but I thank you all for being kind and supportive.

CAVEAT: FINE PRINT: I also want to say my questions do not necessarily reflect my DH's opinions

. The IaB's are his project.

 

[ottbjumper06]

I appreciate everyone's words of encouragement since I am very new to this breed.

I have to say that I am somewhat discouraged after hearing that tail or spinal issues may not be something that is focused on while reviving the breed. I know we need to give our birds time to possibly grow out of the apparent flaw and believe me they are not going to be destroyed one way or the other. I have yet to mark any of my flock for the "stew pot". After all, we treat the birds like children and just started with chicken keeping this last April for the first time in our life so starting for egg production means it's way too early for the "stew pot" for any of our babies.

It may be that none of the remaining flock is without the recessive for wry tail or other genetic issues but as a potential breeder--is everyone here saying it will be ok to continue breeding with these "possible" genetic flaws? I am thinking that is not the case.

I apologize if my questions created any problems, but I feel that I should make a conscious effort to try to set some basic breeding standards and not just throw caution to the wind unless you all who are making history for the Iowa Blue say otherwise. I am just a learner here and do not want to be irresponsible with this effort.

I was just hoping that there was a way to find out by genetic testing instead of using the "breeding" method through generations. Since we are so close to Michigan State University, I will contact them to see what is possible, but I thank you all for being kind and supportive.

CAVEAT: FINE PRINT: I also want to say my questions do not necessarily reflect my DH's opinions

. The IaB's are his project.

Wry tail always has the possibility of popping up in many lines, so it would be extremely difficult (if not impossible) to locate a line free of this issue. The Iowa Blue itself has a limited gene pool to choose from, so it is best if you have a small breeder flock (like me) to not discriminate too harshly. With this breed, it's kind of "pick your poison." Do you want to deal with wry tail or some other genetic issue?

I have one older cockerel I got from Denny, a breeder near Des Moines, that I'm watching grow out right now. The things I notice the most about him are feather quality (which I think he'll molt out of), and wings that aren't as tight as I'd like (which he may grow out of). I'm keeping him because his weight is awesome and so is temperment.

Just remember the SOP is sought after, but never truly achieved. You'll always be working towards something

 

[debs_flock]

Not to mention if you did genetic testing for wry tail, it would have to mean they were able to identify the gene/mutation causing the problem. I doubt that is the case.

 

[karimw]

I appreciate everyone's words of encouragement since I am very new to this breed.

I have to say that I am somewhat discouraged after hearing that tail or spinal issues may not be something that is focused on while reviving the breed. I know we need to give our birds time to possibly grow out of the apparent flaw and believe me they are not going to be destroyed one way or the other. I have yet to mark any of my flock for the "stew pot". After all, we treat the birds like children and just started with chicken keeping this last April for the first time in our life so starting for egg production means it's way too early for the "stew pot" for any of our babies.

It may be that none of the remaining flock is without the recessive for wry tail or other genetic issues but as a potential breeder--is everyone here saying it will be ok to continue breeding with these "possible" genetic flaws? I am thinking that is not the case.

I don't want you to think I would advocate using a truly damaged bird, I was just trying to say that I don't think it's what you have. For example, this guy here is lopping over a bit, but normally he carries it straight down the middle.


Now this F1 guy was about 2 months old in this photo. He did grow out of it so I doubt it was true wry tail but I culled him because I didn't want to risk it. The squirrel tail on the right has been much tougher to get rid of. Mostly due to unexpected loss of better birds.

Take my advice, don't cull yourself out of "OK" birds because you might need them after a fox eats all your good flock sires.

 

[mrandmrschicken]

I'm totally on board with Connie and Kari here! I've had pullets particularly that will hold their tail to the side for days and I start to think their tail is coming in wry, but then after a week or so, the tail is then bend to the opposite side! Like Connie stated, their tail seems to be used as a form of expression. I'll see my pullets and hens checking out a bug or cat or something, and their tail will be moving side to side in anticipation! It's really quite commincal! But when they are alerted to a potentail danger, those tails all stick trait up like a whitetail deer.

And like Connie and Kari, I've yet to see a cockerel that is a great example of the breed as far as coloration and type goes. We've got some work there. Then hens are coming along nicely and we've seen some great strides there. Those boys though, we'll need to hammer those fellas out!

Very good point Curt. I too have had that with other breeds, but when the judges poke and prod them, the tail goes straight up! Or they are curious about another bird. I think maybe they are just lazy from holding them up all the time! the real test is to give them a treat and see how they act then.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Candy,

I wouldn't get too discouraged. As Kari stated earlier, this is a restoration project that will be years in the making. Outside blood had been added in by both Sandhill and Ideal, and now we have to work on eliminating the undesireable genes that were added in in the process of their work. As a group of breeders we had a lot of conversation in the early part of this year to discuss where to start in this process. We have created a "list" of all the undesireable genes and then decided what to hit first. Body size and proper coloration were the two biggest things that needed ergent attention, and so we decided to start there. Squirrel tails were also up high on that list and so we have been eager to eliminate that gene as well. There are many other traits that need to be weeded out (roughly 20 of them), but we can only work on them one at a time. We felt it would be better to have everyone working on the same trait improvements so that the overall population would have a sense of consistancy. Some traits like white in the earlobs and combs that aren't strait are obviously not as high on that list and really fall in a "fine tuning" category.

Now, concerning the wry tail. Over the years I've witnessed over a thousand Iowa Blues and have yet to physically see one that has a wry tail. I'm sure they have shown up from time to time, but I have yet to see an adult with a true wry tail and I doubt they have appeared in any greater frequency than other breeds. However, others may have witnessed one or two. Because this trait is so limited in its appearence, it hasn't hit our "radar" of traits to work on breeding out. This is not to say we shouldn't breed away from it. On the contary, if I have 15 cockerels and one has a wry tail, he'll be in the stew pot and that's be last of that. What I'm trying to get at is that this trait doesn't exist in any sizable number to give us alarm, in fact it may not presently exist in our breeding population at all. At least not in my extensive observations. Concerning genotyping for the trait, that would be a huge undertaking. A while back I contaced Texas A&M about genotyping the Iowa Blue to see what breeds would have been used in the creation of the breed. The project had a cost estimate of about $25,000.00. So, at the present, genotyping is probably outside of our capacity as a club.

Rest assured, breeders are currently and will always be breeding away from wry tail. The reason it may seen like breeders aren't worried about the trait is because 1) few have witnessed a true wry tail in the Iowa Blue and 2) hatcheries are selling "Iowa Blues" that aren't true Iowa Blues. We've got a lot of work to do when it comes to educating others on what a true Iowa Blue is. Example; Ideal sells a black bird that is the size of a Leghorn. The Iowa Blue is suppose to be Silver colored and larger with weights closer to a Rock. Now, at the begining of this year I could only locate 9 Silver Iowa Blues in the nation. But I could find thousands of black birds called "Iowa Blues"......so you can see that there are other traits important to Iowa Blue population identity that are in desparate need of restoration before we can focus on aggressively eliminating those traits that we dislike. If for example we have 20 Silvers and all 20 have wry tails and we eliminate them, then we've effectively caused the breed to go extinct. But if we've got a few thousand Silvers and 20 of them have wry tails, we can eliminate those 20 without effecting the population or the breed's survivability.

Keep in mind, wry tail is a structural defect, and things like color, size, and shape aren't defects in the technical sense, but breed identifiers (although deviation from the Standard is referred to as a "defect" in the show ring). We should always be aggressively selecting away from true defects such as wry tail, that's sort of a "non-spoken rule" if you will. Every breeder is active in breeding away from known defects that show up in their flocks and that is sort of just assumed. On top of that selection, Iowa Blue breeders have then chosen what traits to eliminate in order to restore the Iowa Blue to it's original breed identity.

Restoration work is never "easy". And your concern about the wry tails are rightly justified. My advice at the present is the same as others, let them finish out and see if the tail becomes a true wry tail. My best estimation is that they will not develop into wry tails. But keep us posted on how they continue in their developments! I am curious to see and I know others will benefit from your observations as well. Keep up the good work Candy! We're glad to have you as an active participant in this restoration work.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Oh, I forgot to add something else. The best thing all of the breeders can do is to hatch out as many chicks as possible and aggressively select for the traits you desire. Kari is a perfect example of this and she's come a tremendous way from the stock she started with. In fact, her birds look a million times better than what she started with. Hatch, hatch, hatch......then cull, cull, cull!

 

[Hurley]

Yep, I agree. I would not breed an animal with true wry tail, but the point being that these birds are extremely expressive with their tails and can appear to have a wry tail when they are just showing submission or otherwise are just holding their tail weird. I have not yet identified a bird in my flock with true wry tail (i.e. tail is not held straight, regardless of the bird's mood, always leans the same way).