Iowa Blues - Breed thread and discussion

[Candy442]

So, I'll start with your Charcoal named Nat. Nat is definately a Charcoal, however, Nat is a cockerel!

If you look on his back, you'll see there are some feathers that are outlined in a silvery colored lacing. Only males will show this trait on their backs (this includes all the varieties).

You know what? I think we got the pictures mixed up and that is a shot of Rollo the smokey dominant cockerel's back LOL...sorry about that! Let me post one that I KNOW is the back of Nat...but we named him/her Nat because it can go both ways Now that said, based on the photo below, it still looks like silver lined feathers? Boy still?



The silver lining on this boy is that he'll probably out grow your Smokey in the long run. You'll have a lot of fun with a Charcoal male, he'll bring some great diversity to you flock.

We were real excited to see this pattern pop out from the all very dark brown/black chick down! Not mulberry chestnut all over at all! Will continue to photo journal the development

Your Smokey pullet is very white, which is really neat. Keep us posted on how she continues to develop. One thing to watch for is the Salmon breast. If she develops without the salmon breast, she'll be of great importance to your breeding pen!!! The salmon breast is a result of Autosomal Red, so if you use a salmoned breasted female, you'll end up with males (and females) carrying Ar. That said, the salmon breast is still really pretty.

So far neither Rollo or Four, the two smokeys do not show ANY salmon on them. They are still young though....

I really appreciate the feedback! We have so few to use in our breeding program I can use everyone's opinion in this!

 

[WVDan44]

Dan,

What a very exciting group of young birds you've got here! You're going to do well with these. I'm not a huge fan of the Silver male you've got posted 3rd pic from the top, I'd wait to see if you've got a better male coming up in this group of chicks. It looks like you've got a couple young cockerels in the pictures that are going to finish out real nice with some good size to them. I think you're right, the two top pics are of Ames. His tail feathers are bent in the same spots! hahaha I REALLY like how long his saddle feathers are. VERY COOL! They just flow of his back, it's beautiful.

I am in agreement with you Curt, very excited about my future. BTW it's good to have you back! The silver cockerel is Jeanne's pet (his name is "Humpty" does that give you a clue LOL) and will not be used in my breeding program. Eli is a young lion and will soon replace his sire as #1. There are quite a few cockerels in the upcoming group with a great deal of diversity in color/pattern to allow me adequate selection. I should have enough trouble deciding what to keep! You will recall from our talks that size matters to me and will be a huge consideration going forward; some of the young cockerels look like they will be monsters. I am amazed at the quantum leap of the breed in general by all of the devotees in the club. It takes a lot of critique, cooperation, and caring to make such giant strides. I am greatly impressed with all of you!

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

Candy,

I would say this "new" pic of Nat would signal that Nat is a she. I wasn't super clear on my description of the back feathers. On Rollo, his outlined feathers have to distinct differences 1) The outlined feathers are longer and pointed and the lacing is generally pretty wide, 2) the silvery white edging has almost a fringed look to them. On a pullet, if lacing is present, it's usually a thin lacing like what you see on Nat's accurate photo and the feathers are more rounded and not pointed at all like the feathers that develop on the young males. Is any of this making sense? I hope so.....

 

[WVDan44]

Now, this boy looks like a lion! Check out his hackles! Would you say that looks like a silver mane? I sure would. I know he's a Birchen, but I'd use him in all your breeding plans until you've got a Silver male that's as good as him, to use in place of him. He's got some great depth and an amazing mane. You can see his saddle feathers have some length to them as well, and they will only continue to grow out as he ages. There's a slight hint of red on him, but that can be bred out. His tail is full, which is what we want to see, but it is held a little too high. However, it could be related to how he's standing in the photo. I like the way his comb travels across the top of his head and is of a medium size. What color are his eyes?

His eyes are a dark chestnut. At 8 months old, he still has some developing to do of course. His mane and hackles are silver, his legs are dark gray with no other color showing through, as I said his fluff is also a medium flannel gray. He's definitely the best prospect I've raised, but he's not where I hope to end up. And again, when he is next to his sire, I have to study them to tell them apart. I'm betting that consistency is due to Dark Horse Rex blood.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

In a similar vein to Dan, personally, I have been greatly impressed with everyone's willingness to "throw" their bird on the forum and seek feedback. In a lot of clubs, this just doesn't happen, instead of the open evironment that we have here, in other clubs many breeders have a sense that their birds are superior and therefore don't expose their birds to feedback (either positive or constructive).

When Iowa Blue peeps post their birds on this forum and seek critique, not only does this allow for the person who posted the bird to gain a perspective from other breeders as to what to look for in the stock, but it also greatly helps others who frequent the thread to better understand the breed as a whole. It allows us all to see where the breed is today, areas that need improvement, areas where the breed as a whole is succeeding, and it allows us to fine tune our understanding of the various lines that exist out there.

It's just plain cool. So, thank you everyone for your willingness to share your birds. This only makes us better as breeders, and it allows those of us in club leadership roles to better understand where we need to be focusing our club efforts as we conserve and increase this remarkable breed.

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

I'm betting that consistency is due to Dark Horse Rex blood.

That is one SOLID bet! Wouldn't you say Kari? hahaha

 

[Candy442]

Candy,

I would say this "new" pic of Nat would signal that Nat is a she. I wasn't super clear on my description of the back feathers. On Rollo, his outlined feathers have to distinct differences 1) The outlined feathers are longer and pointed and the lacing is generally pretty wide, 2) the silvery white edging has almost a fringed look to them. On a pullet, if lacing is present, it's usually a thin lacing like what you see on Nat's accurate photo and the feathers are more rounded and not pointed at all like the feathers that develop on the young males. Is any of this making sense? I hope so.....

Curt, any information is treasured by me and Brett. You could see by the photo caption we even said "Nat the charcoal pullet? ---the question mark ! It really doesn't help you all when I don't post the photos in the correct places! geesh, I am so sorry about that!!!

We are really very clueless and just beginning to learn about genetics! It is very tedious to learn this stuff via written word when I am more of a visual learner. The very fine differences in what is considered lacing or white outlines on feathers is so much easier to understand when you clarify it and I really appreciate yours and the rest of the the people on this thread's patience with us. THANK YOU

In a similar vein to Dan, personally, I have been greatly impressed with everyone's willingness to "throw" their bird on the forum and seek feedback. In a lot of clubs, this just doesn't happen, instead of the open evironment that we have here, in other clubs many breeders have a sense that their birds are superior and therefore don't expose their birds to feedback (either positive or constructive).

When Iowa Blue peeps post their birds on this forum and seek critique, not only does this allow for the person who posted the bird to gain a perspective from other breeders as to what to look for in the stock, but it also greatly helps others who frequent the thread to better understand the breed as a whole. It allows us all to see where the breed is today, areas that need improvement, areas where the breed as a whole is succeeding, and it allows us to fine tune our understanding of the various lines that exist out there.

It's just plain cool. So, thank you everyone for your willingness to share your birds. This only makes us better as breeders, and it allows those of us in club leadership roles to better understand where we need to be focusing our club efforts as we conserve and increase this remarkable breed.

I love everyone's help and honest opinion and really am here to learn. We will not get our feelings hurt one bit because we are committed to building a great line of Iowa Blues! I will also add that everyone's feedback has been given with clarity and sincerity, not in a harsh or hurtful way ...another KUDOS for this group. It is my favorite thread on the site because I have been treated rudely by others in other threads for asking what they view as a "dumb" question...

We love our Iowas and have only four adults to work with at this time. We really wish to help and do right by all of you. Please help us when it comes time to roll the breeding.

Do you all feel that Nat being a pullet and a charcoal would be a good bet under Gandalf to produce hopefully some silvers? considering she has half silver from him to begin with?

 

[IowaBlueCurt]

You could put Nat back on Gandalf. Genetically you should be alright. Keep in mind however, when you breed a daughter back to a father, or son back to a mother, you solidify any unwanted traits. Example, if you put Nat back on Gandalf, you'll be cementing the high tail angle, square shaped body, and any other area that isn't where you'd want the offspring to be. Once you've got birds that have, say, two genes for high tail angles, then when you breed a bird like this to a bird with a low tail angle, every chick out of that cross will carry high tail angles, because a high tail angle is dominant. So, personally, I wouldn't unless he was the best male I had available. I would wait and see how Rollo turns out in body type. Yes, he's a Smokey, however, if you bred him to Sweetie, you'll still end up with (statistically) 1/4 of the chicks coming out Silver. You'd also end up with some more Smokeys, Charcoals, and depending on the modifiers- some Charcoals that look like they are Birchens. Those last ones you'd want to cull out. Anyway, if you've got some Smokeys without the salmon breasts and some Charcoals in your flock, then you'd be set up real nice.

Historically, all three of these types (Silver, Smokey (without the salmon breast caused by Ar), and Charcoals) all coexisted in the same flock and had a natural ebb and flow depending on genetic chance. I don't know for fact, but I assume the reason for this is because in the 1920's when this breed was created, man didn't know about the various e-locus genes or even the color genes all that well. So, you take a farmer in Iowa who couldn't have known what was going on genetically, and he establishes a breed, constantly saving back the males and females that look the way he wants them to look, and act the way he wants them to act, over time he's got a group of birds that hatch out all different colors but eventually end up maturing into birds that closely resemble eachother reguardless of which e-locus they carry.

I share this simply to let you know that even though the Silver is the Standard color (because clearly that was the color John Logston (the breed's creator) was selecting for), the Charcoal and Smokeys play an important piece to the breed's history and to the breed today. We want these two variations to exist because we don't want to lose them forever.

Its a bit tricky, you see, the APA requires a very specific standard which would alienate the other variations, but if we were to keep all three of these variations as Standard, then the APA won't recognize the breed. So, as a club we had to set up a Standard for the main variation Logston was working towards for those individuals who desire to have the breed in the APA, to breed toward and ideal, and to compete against. At the same time we decided to place a high priority on the Charcoal and Smokey because we want those breeders who wish to maintain the traditional coexistance of these three variations to feel that their flocks are validated and that other members will recognize that these flocks are stil considered purebred by the club.

In shorter words - when the Silver gains APA acceptance-
1) The APA will only recognize the Silver as purebred, the Charcoal and Smokey as nonpurebred
2) However, the club will recognize the Charcoal and Smokey as purebreds as well, and those breeders who maintain all three in their flocks will be considered purebred flocks by the club.

That's the line of thinking anyway, nothing's set in stone yet. Feedback is definately welcome on this topic.

 

[WVDan44]

Eric and Hannah,
Congratulations on a successful showing of the Iowa Blue! You've got a couple of good looking birds there Hannah, and this is just what we need; individuals who are willing to take good examples of what the breed is supposed to look like in color and type, and expose them to the public. Thank you for you work, and thank you Eric for helping bring exposure of the Iowa Blue to our local shows in the state.
I would encourage anyone who takes their birds to a show, to post pics on this site and more importantly, send copies of your pics along with the show results to Connie Hurley (our Secretary and Webmaster) so we can post the results and pics on our website for other breeders to see. Great work!

Eric and Hannah,
Congratulations on a successful showing of the Iowa Blue! You've got a couple of good looking birds there Hannah, and this is just what we need; individuals who are willing to take good examples of what the breed is supposed to look like in color and type, and expose them to the public. Thank you for you work, and thank you Eric for helping bring exposure of the Iowa Blue to our local shows in the state.
I would encourage anyone who takes their birds to a show, to post pics on this site and more importantly, send copies of your pics along with the show results to Connie Hurley (our Secretary and Webmaster) so we can post the results and pics on our website for other breeders to see. Great work!

Hi Eric and Hannah, I don't know how this post got past me. Y'all look like a couple of happy IaB owners, that's for sure. Shows can be a lot of fun especially when you have some fine looking birds to show. Keep up the good work! I'm gonna surprise all you Iowans one day by coming to one of your state shows without any prior warning. I'd like to meet the entire group as long as y'all will allow this gritty ole hillbilly into the show barn!
WVDan

 

[karimw]

That is one SOLID bet! Wouldn't you say Kari? hahaha

Yes, there are quite a few running around like him He certainly stamps his offspring, good and bad. I will say though, not too many have his extreme sickle feathers.




It's going to look a lot different when my current youngsters grow up. ALL the boys I have left from last year but 2 are going to the butcher tomorrow. After all the the years of 1 out of 50 cockerels growing up to be useful, I think this will be my year of the rooster. My new boys are showing a lot of potential!