Years ago when I first got my call ducks I was advised by a prominent breeder to watch the protein intake because of it causing angel wing.
Is 20% protein feed to much?
- Thread starter Tweeza
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My first ducks are now 3 months old, and I fed them gamebird starter with 24% protein for the first 6-8 weeks. Then I read about the angel wing and high protein, freaked out a bit, and switched them to chicken grower crumbles with 15% protein. No angel wing, but they free range during the day, and I started mixing in a little corn when they were about 3 weeks old just because they seemed to love it so much.
I now have 4 new babies (3 days old), and am mixing the grower ration with the gamebird starter. Should this be OK?
I now have 4 new babies (3 days old), and am mixing the grower ration with the gamebird starter. Should this be OK?
I have a backyard flock - oldest female duck Henry is 9 years old - unsure of her heritage (golden something or other). I have two "great producers" who produce a clutch a year - hen Aflack is daughter of Henry and a call duck male (Douh); Aflack's mate Dill, is a clutch mate to Aflack's father (Aflack's father is dead).
My ducks are on flock raiser - 20% free choice from hatch. My ducks also "free-range" in the desert, so no grass. But bugs and weeds, some horse hay (alfalfa).
I also do not have an incubator, just Aflack so far.
I have never had angel wing, this year we hatched Henry's great-grandson duckling. (I also had never heard of angel wing until about 6 years ago - anyone know when it first "showed up"?)
My ducks are on flock raiser - 20% free choice from hatch. My ducks also "free-range" in the desert, so no grass. But bugs and weeds, some horse hay (alfalfa).
I also do not have an incubator, just Aflack so far.
I have never had angel wing, this year we hatched Henry's great-grandson duckling. (I also had never heard of angel wing until about 6 years ago - anyone know when it first "showed up"?)
Last edited:
- Mar 21, 2009
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Flock Raiser is about the closest thing you can get to duck feed other than duck feed. At 20%, it is a little higher protein, but has the added niacin that ducks need so it is better than some other options. I am currently feeding Flock Raiser myself. My Welsh Harlequins are the first group I have raised start to finish on it and I have some new baby Runners on it now too.
A lot of us here (if not most) don't just feed commercial feed though as a sole diet. That makes a big difference and completely changes the overall percentage of protein. I am using Flock Raiser, but I mix it with 25% oats and of course, I feed lot of greens too.
I have fed various diets over the years. The only time I had any significant issues was when I tried Manna-Pro's 24% protein feed. Of course, I only had problems with a few birds out of the 40 or so I raised on it. Not every bird raised on any given diet is going to have issues and I think we often offset potential issues by offering other feed sources. Large commercial breeders do not tend to offer the varied diets (especially things like fresh greens) that we do here. It may not be as good for the birds to be on only processed commercial feeds, but it is certainly easier to narrow down the potential source of problems when that is all they are eating and the exact content is known.
A lot of us here (if not most) don't just feed commercial feed though as a sole diet. That makes a big difference and completely changes the overall percentage of protein. I am using Flock Raiser, but I mix it with 25% oats and of course, I feed lot of greens too.
I have fed various diets over the years. The only time I had any significant issues was when I tried Manna-Pro's 24% protein feed. Of course, I only had problems with a few birds out of the 40 or so I raised on it. Not every bird raised on any given diet is going to have issues and I think we often offset potential issues by offering other feed sources. Large commercial breeders do not tend to offer the varied diets (especially things like fresh greens) that we do here. It may not be as good for the birds to be on only processed commercial feeds, but it is certainly easier to narrow down the potential source of problems when that is all they are eating and the exact content is known.
I raise wild type ducks and they are currently on 20% protien diet with whole wheat on the side which i start feeding them after breeding season and through winter. I have not experienced angel wing in my flock, ever. I believe if you fed something like a 28% feed you may have problems with angel wing, and it may be more prevelant in tame type ducks and geese as well, compared to wild type ducks.
As far as what wild ducks eat in the wild, as ducklings its a high protien diet of bugs in the growing stage, then its vegetation and grains/seeds to sustain them through the summer/fall, then its a high concentration of protien again in early spring to prepare for breeding season. This diet is simliar to how we feed our flocks.
I truly believe protien is over rated in adult ducks/gamebirds. There are a lot more ingredients than protien that they need, that are rarley discussed. I do believe in a high protien content in gamebird chicks as i did an experiment with Coturnix quail that proved you need high protien, as i fed the first hatch 28% gamebird diet with great results, then i fed the second hatch 20% flock raiser and ended up with major feather picking and canniblism, yet i fed the 20% flock raiser to the adult quail and did not experience the same feather picking/canniblism. I also feed my wild type ducklings the 20% feed, the same as the adults, and have not had a single problem and the birds are very healthy and the coloration is beautiful.
I was feeding Mazuri Waterfowl food for a few months, but that got expensively out of hand, so i switched to flock raiser and i have not seen any noticable results and the feed is a 1/3 of the price of Mazuri.
The biggest thing is to observe your flock on a daily basis and make adjustments accordingly. And remember, a lean duck is a healthy duck, unless you plan on eating it then feel free to fatten it up!.....................Jason
As far as what wild ducks eat in the wild, as ducklings its a high protien diet of bugs in the growing stage, then its vegetation and grains/seeds to sustain them through the summer/fall, then its a high concentration of protien again in early spring to prepare for breeding season. This diet is simliar to how we feed our flocks.
I truly believe protien is over rated in adult ducks/gamebirds. There are a lot more ingredients than protien that they need, that are rarley discussed. I do believe in a high protien content in gamebird chicks as i did an experiment with Coturnix quail that proved you need high protien, as i fed the first hatch 28% gamebird diet with great results, then i fed the second hatch 20% flock raiser and ended up with major feather picking and canniblism, yet i fed the 20% flock raiser to the adult quail and did not experience the same feather picking/canniblism. I also feed my wild type ducklings the 20% feed, the same as the adults, and have not had a single problem and the birds are very healthy and the coloration is beautiful.
I was feeding Mazuri Waterfowl food for a few months, but that got expensively out of hand, so i switched to flock raiser and i have not seen any noticable results and the feed is a 1/3 of the price of Mazuri.
The biggest thing is to observe your flock on a daily basis and make adjustments accordingly. And remember, a lean duck is a healthy duck, unless you plan on eating it then feel free to fatten it up!.....................Jason
I want a definitive study dernnit!
I have been studying human AND animal nutrition very extensively for the past 2 years. Not because I wanted to, but because I had to for the sake of my own health and the sake of my animals. Here are some quick example of why I am so skeptical about protein's role in angel wing.
One of the things that gets to blame for human disease is saturated fat. Well, guess what? They finally actually STUDIED IT after 30 years of spreading the word that through government and health agencies that saturated fat causes heart attacks. The result? Saturated fat did not cause heart disease and may even be PROTECTIVE. The fats that do cause damage are hydrogenated fats and plant based oils. But if you ask your average person if saturated fat causes heart attacks, they would say YES despite the complete lack of science to support this belief. They would also swear that vegetable oil is perfectly healthy even though it is the major component in arterial plaques.
Another thing that gets blamed for health problems like kidneys damage and gout in humans is protein/red meat. Again, it was finally studied. There is NO EVIDENCE that eating a lot of protein will damage healthy kidney.
"The belief that high protein diets cause kidney damage is one reason why, for many years, doctors warned people with diabetes that low carb diets would kill their kidneys.
Fortunately, this turns out not to be true. While almost any intake of protein is a problem for people with advanced kidney disease, studies have found repeatedly that for people with normal kidney function or early diabetic changes the low carb diet not only doesn't promote kidney damage, it also reduces blood pressure, which is a major cause of kidney damage and may actually reverse early kidney changes.
In fact, people who are able to normalize their blood sugars with a low carb diet often report that their kidney function recovers and that microalbumin disappears from their urine.
A low-carbohydrate diet may prevent end-stage renal failure in type 2 diabetes. A case report. Jorgen Vesti Nielsen et al. .Nutr Metab . 2006; 3: 23. "
Another thing I ran across in my studies is the problem with heart disease in zoo apes. Silverbacks (males in the prime of their lives) are dropping dead from heart failure. Obviously they aren't being fed steaks and butter so what's the problem? Well, one change between captive zoo apes and their wild brothers and sisters is that zoo apes are fed kibble. Their feed is like much of the commercial pet foods...high in corn, soy and wheat. In the wild, they eat leaves. They have large stomaches and very long intestines. Their intestinal flora converts those high cellulose leaves in to essential fatty acids. Instead of getting essential fatty acids from the leaves they are supposed to be eating, zoo apes are given carbohydrates. In other words, they are fed a lot of sugar...something they would not naturally eat.
As for not being able to compare what a wild duck would eat to what a domestic duck eats....why in the world can't you? They are the same species. The changes to these creatures from domestication have not changed them so radically that we can't take lessons from their evolutionary diets. Many dog owners have reversed serious health problems in their pets by reverting to WHAT A WOLF WOULD EAT. Cat owners and dog owners are seeing tremendous health benefits from feeding their pets raw meat and getting them off corn, soy, wheat and other fillers.
This is also true when it comes to people. The Paleo food movement has reversed type 2 diabetes, helped with weight loss, lowered blood pressure and improved lipid profiles in its followers. By returning to an evolutionary diet, these people are avoiding "diseases of civilization" that are now rampant in our culture.
I have been studying human AND animal nutrition very extensively for the past 2 years. Not because I wanted to, but because I had to for the sake of my own health and the sake of my animals. Here are some quick example of why I am so skeptical about protein's role in angel wing.
One of the things that gets to blame for human disease is saturated fat. Well, guess what? They finally actually STUDIED IT after 30 years of spreading the word that through government and health agencies that saturated fat causes heart attacks. The result? Saturated fat did not cause heart disease and may even be PROTECTIVE. The fats that do cause damage are hydrogenated fats and plant based oils. But if you ask your average person if saturated fat causes heart attacks, they would say YES despite the complete lack of science to support this belief. They would also swear that vegetable oil is perfectly healthy even though it is the major component in arterial plaques.
Another thing that gets blamed for health problems like kidneys damage and gout in humans is protein/red meat. Again, it was finally studied. There is NO EVIDENCE that eating a lot of protein will damage healthy kidney.
"The belief that high protein diets cause kidney damage is one reason why, for many years, doctors warned people with diabetes that low carb diets would kill their kidneys.
Fortunately, this turns out not to be true. While almost any intake of protein is a problem for people with advanced kidney disease, studies have found repeatedly that for people with normal kidney function or early diabetic changes the low carb diet not only doesn't promote kidney damage, it also reduces blood pressure, which is a major cause of kidney damage and may actually reverse early kidney changes.
In fact, people who are able to normalize their blood sugars with a low carb diet often report that their kidney function recovers and that microalbumin disappears from their urine.
A low-carbohydrate diet may prevent end-stage renal failure in type 2 diabetes. A case report. Jorgen Vesti Nielsen et al. .Nutr Metab . 2006; 3: 23. "
Another thing I ran across in my studies is the problem with heart disease in zoo apes. Silverbacks (males in the prime of their lives) are dropping dead from heart failure. Obviously they aren't being fed steaks and butter so what's the problem? Well, one change between captive zoo apes and their wild brothers and sisters is that zoo apes are fed kibble. Their feed is like much of the commercial pet foods...high in corn, soy and wheat. In the wild, they eat leaves. They have large stomaches and very long intestines. Their intestinal flora converts those high cellulose leaves in to essential fatty acids. Instead of getting essential fatty acids from the leaves they are supposed to be eating, zoo apes are given carbohydrates. In other words, they are fed a lot of sugar...something they would not naturally eat.
As for not being able to compare what a wild duck would eat to what a domestic duck eats....why in the world can't you? They are the same species. The changes to these creatures from domestication have not changed them so radically that we can't take lessons from their evolutionary diets. Many dog owners have reversed serious health problems in their pets by reverting to WHAT A WOLF WOULD EAT. Cat owners and dog owners are seeing tremendous health benefits from feeding their pets raw meat and getting them off corn, soy, wheat and other fillers.
This is also true when it comes to people. The Paleo food movement has reversed type 2 diabetes, helped with weight loss, lowered blood pressure and improved lipid profiles in its followers. By returning to an evolutionary diet, these people are avoiding "diseases of civilization" that are now rampant in our culture.
Quote:
I can't say when it first showed up but I have a few copies of "Duck & Goose" magazine from the late '50s-early'60s where angel wing is discussed so it was around then.
I can't say when it first showed up but I have a few copies of "Duck & Goose" magazine from the late '50s-early'60s where angel wing is discussed so it was around then.
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