Is Early Crowing a sign of early maturity? If so, will the daughters inherit early maturity and lay eggs earlier?

[Pinoy Angelfish]

Can early crowing in cockerels be used as a selective indicator for early maturity; and will the daughters inherit this early maturity and lay eggs earlier?

If early crowing is a sign of early maturity, will his mature body weight/size be smaller than normal?

 

[nuthatched]

Too different functions. You don't want pulleys to lay to early.

 

[SwampPrincessChick]

What the reply above me states. You don't want pullets laying too early because crossbreeds that are bred for extreme egg production and early laying often only last a year. Early laying declines their health a lot and is not good for them. They may become egg bound more easily. And no, body weight and size has nothing to do with when they start crowing.

 

[Folly's place]

Older books recommend favoring early maturing cockerels, for producing early maturing pullets. It's pretty low on my list, because I'm going to cull for poor temperament, structural faults, and small size first. It depends on what your breeding goals actually are; in my case, with dual purpose breeds, larger size matters as much as good egg production, often opposing traits.
So, no 'always right' answer, go for what you want in your flock.
Mary

 

[Mrs. K]

It does depend on your flock and what you want. Personally I have had a lot of hybrid chickens that laid well and consistently for 2-3 years, and then pass painlessly. And in decades of having chickens - I have never had an egg bound chicken. Maybe mine get more exercise?

Anyway - early laying is a trait that has been bred for, and you certainly can do it. However, it is really quite difficult to truly change things genetically unless you are breeding for 20-30 years and have a rather large flock to pick from, keep VERY careful records and only hatch eggs that follow your plan, and cull ruthlessly.

But it can be fun to play.

Mrs K

 

[NatJ]

Can early crowing in cockerels be used as a selective indicator for early maturity; and will the daughters inherit this early maturity and lay eggs earlier?

If early crowing is a sign of early maturity, will his mature body weight/size be smaller than normal?

I know it works the other way around:

For breeds where the females start to lay eggs at a young age, the males do start to crow at an early age (as compared with females & males of breeds that mature later.)

Small chickens (bantams) commonly mature at a younger age than many other chickens. Extra-large chickens are well know for maturing late.

I would say there is a good chance that the early-crowing male will also sire daughters who mature earlier, and there is also a good chance that you will be breeding in the direction of smaller body size.

As regards specifically the crowing and the size: if you track which male starts to crow when, you can compare sizes as they continue to grow (or not grow), to see what effect there is on the final body size with the chickens you have.

Even weighing them all once, when you notice someone crowing, may answer part of your question about crowing and body weight.

I have seen times when one cockerel matured faster in all ways (heavier, crowing, mating), and his smaller brother was delayed (runt? failure to thrive? just different genes?). But I have also seen times when one matured quickly in a sexual sense (crowing and mating), but he also stopped growing at a small size. His less-mature brother was heavier than he was, both when the first one started crowing and when they were both adults.

You don't want pulleys to lay to early.

You don't want pullets laying too early because crossbreeds that are bred for extreme egg production and early laying often only last a year. Early laying declines their health a lot and is not good for them.

There is some point that is "too early" to start laying (if you want good health), but some breeds take late laying to extremes. I see reports of 8-10 months old at first egg for breeds like Brahmas and some Orpingtons, but I do NOT see any reports of them living longer than the breeds that start laying a few months sooner (maybe 5-6 months of age.)

And no, body weight and size has nothing to do with when they start crowing.

Within the same breed, I don't know for sure about general patterns. I do know that specific birds can go either way.

Comparing between different breeds, I do see correlation, with the biggest breeds usually being the latest to start crowing, as well as the latest to mature in other ways.

I suggest that if the OP really wants to know, they should track what happens with THEIR birds, rather than relying too heavily on what anyone else predicts will happen.

 

[Pinoy Angelfish]

Thanks to everyone for your replies!

As regards specifically the crowing and the size: if you track which male starts to crow when, you can compare sizes as they continue to grow (or not grow), to see what effect there is on the final body size with the chickens you have.

Even weighing them all once, when you notice someone crowing, may answer part of your question about crowing and body weight.

I have seen times when one cockerel matured faster in all ways (heavier, crowing, mating), and his smaller brother was delayed (runt? failure to thrive? just different genes?). But I have also seen times when one matured quickly in a sexual sense (crowing and mating), but he also stopped growing at a small size. His less-mature brother was heavier than he was, both when the first one started crowing and when they were both adults.

This is very helpful to know, thanks NatJ,

The first and only pure heritage chicken breed that I raised starting as chicks was the Barred Plymouth Rock. Out of 12 chicks only 4 grew to maturity (very delayed egg laying, after 11-12 months; why?), all the rest died one after the other due to sickness even after repeatedly giving medication.

When the 4 hens started laying eggs, there would be regularly broken eggs; thin egg shells. Why?

Heat stress under the hot and humid climate here in Palawan Philippines was the reason why.

Based on research/studies, heat stress has a negative impact on reproduction, egg quality and disease resistance of chickens.

Back to the question of this post. With pullets it is easy to determine which ones would lay the earliest but with cockerels how can early sexual maturity be determined?

Yesterday I found these two articles:

"Sexual maturation itself has been shown to be under strong hormonal control, and in the case of chickens maturation has been shown to be associated with increased levels of estradiol 17beta. Hormones affect a variety of other traits in the chicken, including secondary sexual characteristics." https://liu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:480866/FULLTEXT01#:~:text=Sexual maturation itself has been,chicken, including secondary sexual characteristics.

"ABSTRACT Environmental influence on the avian reproductive system is well recognised. This study investigates the effects of ambient temperature on egg quality in the native Thai Chicken (Gallus domesticus). Effects on prolactin( PRL) and ovarian steroids in chickens housed under different temperatures were also elucidated....The results revealed that E (estradiol) levels were significantly higher in chickens reared under low ambient temperature (27 °C) when compared with those exposed to 31 °C and 35 °C." https://sciencetech.nrru.ac.th/mis-science/pages/journal/file/journal_252575b95ef74f3ef1.pdf

Under high ambient temperatures, under heat stress, native Thai chickens have significantly lower estradiol levels.

Increased estradiol level is associated with sexual maturation. If under high ambient temperatures estradiol level is lowered then sexual maturation will be delayed, correct?

My chickens now are crosses of heritage/commercial egg layer breed/strain and indigenous naked neck- more heat tolerant than normal feathered. One of the later hatched cockerels (naked neck) started crowing early compared with the others...and this prompted this post.

Under the hot and humid tropical climate, given that high ambient temperatures significantly lower estradiol levels and that higher levels of estradiol is associated with sexual maturation, could we assume then that selective breeding for early laying and early crowing is in effect indirectly selective breeding for heat tolerance as well?
.

 

[NatJ]

Thanks to everyone for your replies!

This is very helpful to know, thanks NatJ,

The first and only pure heritage chicken breed that I raised starting as chicks was the Barred Plymouth Rock. Out of 12 chicks only 4 grew to maturity (very delayed egg laying, after 11-12 months; why?), all the rest died one after the other due to sickness even after repeatedly giving medication.

When the 4 hens started laying eggs, there would be regularly broken eggs; thin egg shells. Why?

Heat stress under the hot and humid climate here in Palawan Philippines was the reason why.

Based on research/studies, heat stress has a negative impact on reproduction, egg quality and disease resistance of chickens.

Back to the question of this post. With pullets it is easy to determine which ones would lay the earliest but with cockerels how can early sexual maturity be determined?

Yesterday I found these two articles:

"Sexual maturation itself has been shown to be under strong hormonal control, and in the case of chickens maturation has been shown to be associated with increased levels of estradiol 17beta. Hormones affect a variety of other traits in the chicken, including secondary sexual characteristics." https://liu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:480866/FULLTEXT01#:~:text=Sexual maturation itself has been,chicken, including secondary sexual characteristics.

"ABSTRACT Environmental influence on the avian reproductive system is well recognised. This study investigates the effects of ambient temperature on egg quality in the native Thai Chicken (Gallus domesticus). Effects on prolactin( PRL) and ovarian steroids in chickens housed under different temperatures were also elucidated....The results revealed that E (estradiol) levels were significantly higher in chickens reared under low ambient temperature (27 °C) when compared with those exposed to 31 °C and 35 °C." https://sciencetech.nrru.ac.th/mis-science/pages/journal/file/journal_252575b95ef74f3ef1.pdf

Under high ambient temperatures, under heat stress, native Thai chickens have significantly lower estradiol levels.

Increased estradiol level is associated with sexual maturation. If under high ambient temperatures estradiol level is lowered then sexual maturation will be delayed, correct?

My chickens now are crosses of heritage/commercial egg layer breed/strain and indigenous naked neck- more heat tolerant than normal feathered. One of the later hatched cockerels (naked neck) started crowing early compared with the others...and this prompted this post.

Under the hot and humid tropical climate, given that high ambient temperatures significantly lower estradiol levels and that higher levels of estradiol is associated with sexual maturation, could we assume then that selective breeding for early laying and early crowing is in effect indirectly selective breeding for heat tolerance as well?
.

Very interesting.

Under the hot and humid tropical climate, given that high ambient temperatures significantly lower estradiol levels and that higher levels of estradiol is associated with sexual maturation, could we assume then that selective breeding for early laying and early crowing is in effect indirectly selective breeding for heat tolerance as well?

That sounds logical to me, but I don't know enough on the subject to be sure.

At a minimum, I can see that selecting for early laying would also to select for enough heat tolerance that they can lay (vs. dying from the heat, or being too stressed to lay at all.)

I have noticed that hot-climate chickens tend to have smaller body sizes than cold-climate chickens, at least in general. I wonder if small bodies actually help them tolerate the heat better?

 

[Folly's place]

It would make sense. Also, those big single combs help the bird lose heat, another good thing.
Mary

 

[skeeeter]

Hi, would just like to add, for what it's worth: Living here, a degree south of the tropic, I am technically in the subtropical/temperate zone... It is nearly impossible to raise chicks here in summer.. they don't thrive nor hardly grow. If started in fall-winter, they do very well, and grow up heat hardy. We've never lost fall/winter started chickens to heat stress even at temps over 100°F/37°C. they do skip egg days for a couple of days/weeks til the heat waves abate, tho. We generally raise dualpurpose and meat chickens.