Is the bibbed gene and pied seperate

[bemba]

Hey guys, since posting the runner X call, I have actually managed to get a black pied? call drake. He has a white bib, green head, white flights, white where the beak meets the head, a small white line trailing the eyes and his feet are splotchy like my black pied runner drake, his body colour looks black when he is observed but when you hold him up close he is more of a deep DARK chocolate ripple. More to the point..... how can i tell for sure he is pied and not just white bibbed...... do white bibbed get white other than the bib? Regardless I am now on a quest to breed bantam runners! (pics of my ducks are on my runner X call post)

 

[rollyard]

Is the bibbed gene and pied seperate:- Yes they are. There are two identified genes for bib; dominant bib & the reportedly rarer recessive bib gene. The dominant pied gene (Runner pattern) that produces bi-coloured birds is usually seen in runner ducks. Magpie patterned birds (as in Magpie & Ancona ducks) apparently have both dominant bib & runner (pied) patterned genes & are made on extended black. White flights are supposed to be caused by yet another recessive gene, & often the last two or three primaries are involved. Some of these genes seem to be quite closely linked.

Your bird doesn't really sound like a pied patterned bird to me, more a bibbed. And yes, it is quite common for white to extend up from the bib & encircle both upper & lower parts of the bill.

 

[CityChicker]

Yeah, everything Ross said. It sounds like your new Call may be Bibbed, not Pied. Your Runner, as I think I mentioned in PM, looks Pied except in that one picture from the side, but the color and pattern combination you have is very unusual. If your goal is to breed Pied, I would highly advise against breeding in Bibbed genes. Bibbed is very hard to breed out. As far as the chocolate lacing, this is common in extended black birds and is unrelated usually to actual chocolate color, which is extended black with sex-linked brown dilution.

As far as the white primaries, there is a separate gene believed to be responsible for that, but in my experience Bibbed and Pied birds almost always have white primaries (here in the US anyway). Bibbed and white primaries are also frequently associate with extended black. The easiest way to really tell Bibbed from Pied is simply where the white extends. When heterozygous, in my experiences, it generally results in an enlarged neck ring and more extensive white at the nape and on the wings, including the primaries. In homozygous birds, generally speaking in basic terms, the white is even more extensive. Birds that are Bibbed rather than Pied (as opposed to Bibbed *and* Pied), especially in the presence of extended black, will have more of a literal white bib. They will generally not have the white neck ring that joins in the back and widens at the nape.

 

[bemba]

Thanks guys.... will get a pic soon. What colours would i get crossing him with a blue fawn duck?

 

[rollyard]

Quote:
The question you ask has the potential to be quite complex as re: the answer bemba. To keep it simple though, let us assume that your black bibbed drake is homozygous extended black & your blue fawn is heterozygous for blue. All ducklings thus produced will inherit a single dose of the extended black gene & this being epistatic to other colour (except no-colour ie white) will turn all ducklings black. Approx 50% will inherit the blue gene (heterozygous), & all will inherit the dominant bib gene if your drake is pure (homozygous) for it. So you may end up with some black, some blue, mostly bibbed progeny. The white flights are from a recessive gene, so unless your blue fawn also carries this gene heterozygous & hidden, you aren't likely to get as many white flighted birds.

Having said this, if it is one thing I have learned, that is to expect the unexpected. The extended black gene is supposed to be closely linked with both the dominant bib gene & I think (not too sure without checking) the recessive gene for white flights (& white spotting generally), hence the difficulty in breeding it (white spotting) out, so you may find white spotting/markings other than the symmetrical bib etc on some of the young thus bred, & white (no-colour) tends to spread/increase on extended black birds as they age.

But remember, it is extremely difficult to predict colour bred when the colour genetics of the parent or stock birds are unknown/untested & results may vary, particulary if your black bird is heterozygous for extended black. I have described one possible outcome which may or may not be correct.

Dana has wonderful practical knowledge & will know far better than I.

Regards.

 

[bemba]

Thanks for a bit of insight Rollyard, what exactly does homo and hetro mean in regards to the colours, and also what is extended black? I know a fair bit in parrot colour genetics but these new terms have got me.... dominant, recessive and sex linked are terms i am used to! and also split. Thanks again.

 

[rollyard]

Homozygous means that the pair of genes (alleles) @ a certain locus (position) are the same eg recessive white = c/c. Heterozygous means that the pair of alleles @ a cetain locus differ eg c/C+. I see them as variations of the same gene. How does it effect colour? If a gene for colour is recessive then it usually takes two (a pair of alleles) for the colour to express in the feather, eg a white duck will be homozygous (pure) for recessive white (c/c). If a gene for colour is dominant then one gene is usually enough for the colour to express in the feather, eg a black duck may be heterozygous (not pure) for extended black but still appear black (E/e+).

The extended black gene (E) is the gene that turns your duck black. For example, Cayuga, black Indian Runners, & East Indie ducks etc have extended black. It is a dominant gene & my understanding is that it only takes the one dose (heterozygous form) for the gene to express completely.

This is how I see it. Others may explain it differently (& more clearly).