Isabel Cuckoo genetics ?

[flgardengirl]

I have a pair of Isabel Cuckoo English Orp Chicks. They are still feathering in. The pattern looks correct so far, but pretty light.
I was reading about the Isabel Cuckoo pattern and the author said at some point, one may need to cross back to a Crele Orpington if they were getting a lighter pattern.
So if one does that, what is the best method? Do I just cross them once back to Crele? Then what? Will I see results right away or will it take a few generations?
Thanks

 

[The Moonshiner]

The most common answer is go back to crele every third or after every third generation.
Just breed to crele and those offspring will appear crele but will carry one lavender gene (split to lavender).
You can then bred those back to cuckoo Isabel for around 1/2 chicks being CI and around 1/2 being C split to lavender.
Or you can breed offspring together and get around 1/4 CI, 1/4 C and 1/2 C split to lavender.

 

[sylviethecochin]

The most common answer is go back to crele every third or after every third generation.
Just breed to crele and those offspring will appear crele but will carry one lavender gene (split to lavender).
You can then bred those back to cuckoo Isabel for around 1/2 chicks being CI and around 1/2 being C split to lavender.
Or you can breed offspring together and get around 1/4 CI, 1/4 C and 1/2 C split to lavender.

What's the point of that? How does breeding back make them darker without just making them black and gold? If it's dilution genes, why not just breed back once and then focus on the darkest quality stock of the lavender grandchicks?

 

[The Moonshiner]

It does make the first generation black and gold but they carry lavender.
Lavender is thought to get lighter generation after generation it is also thought to deteriorate feather quality.
The idea is to breed to non lavender every few generations to "rejuvenate" the feather quality and color.

 

[sylviethecochin]

It does make the first generation black and gold but they carry lavender.
Lavender is thought to get lighter generation after generation it is also thought to deteriorate feather quality.
The idea is to breed to non lavender every few generations to "rejuvenate" the feather quality and color.

I (EDT: think I) understand the argument, but it really doesn't make any sense to me.

Maybe breeding the black in does make the chicken darker. I buy that. But it would have to work via re-introduction of darkening genes, or removal of dilution genes. Likewise with the ragged feather gene. You're adding some new genes that aren't ragged feather, and hoping that the grandchicks inherit non-ragged feather from both parents. Which should, theoretically work.

But once those dilution genes are eliminated, and the ragged-feather is eliminated, it should be gone, right? Why would you have to introduce new black stock three gens later? (unless during those three generations, you're ignoring/including lightest lavender and most ragged feathers, instead of eliminating them). Is there something I'm missing?

 

[flgardengirl]

Thank you so much for clarifying! Thats what I wanted to know, specifically, if the first generation would be Isabel Cuckoo or Crele carrying lavender. I will take the shortest route lol. Now I will have to find some Crele English Orpingtons grrrr.
No wonder a lot of people seem to drop their Isabel Orpington projects lol. I dont care, I think Isabel is the prettiest color pattern I've ever seen in chickens.

 

[The Moonshiner]

I (EDT: think I) understand the argument, but it really doesn't make any sense to me.

Maybe breeding the black in does make the chicken darker. I buy that. But it would have to work via re-introduction of darkening genes, or removal of dilution genes. Likewise with the ragged feather gene. You're adding some new genes that aren't ragged feather, and hoping that the grandchicks inherit non-ragged feather from both parents. Which should, theoretically work.

But once those dilution genes are eliminated, and the ragged-feather is eliminated, it should be gone, right? Why would you have to introduce new black stock three gens later? (unless during those three generations, you're ignoring/including lightest lavender and most ragged feathers, instead of eliminating them). Is there something I'm missing?

Lol. You don't show any lavender based birds do you?
I always heard it back when I showed and from SOP breeders.
The same concept is supposed to be used in blue breeding.
Do I fully believe it? Nope. I raised porcelain D'Uccles for years and many generations. Never saw the issues stated.
When I got the Isabella leghorns I bred to browns often, very often. It did improve feather quality but never seen a difference in shade of lavender.
IDK it's one of those ideas that people just pass on and pass on without really knowing usually.

 

[sylviethecochin]

You don't show any lavender based birds do you?

Nope. I raise mutts of various patterns and for the past three years, I've been breeding for blue w/laying ability (and I don't like splash, so I use black anyway) small combs, and broodiness, in about that order. I haven't touched Lavender, and I do not intend to do so.

Everything I've been reading was theoretical. But I find it interesting that England has apparently produced several lavender lines unaffected by ragged feathers. This leads me to believe that it's something that can be bred out. I don't know about lightening/darkening Lavender, but I assume it's the same principle as reducing brassiness in silver--breeding for the best and culling relentlessly.

 

[Amer]

Lol. You don't show any lavender based birds do you?
I always heard it back when I showed and from SOP breeders.
The same concept is supposed to be used in blue breeding.
Do I fully believe it? Nope. I raised porcelain D'Uccles for years and many generations. Never saw the issues stated.
When I got the Isabella leghorns I bred to browns often, very often. It did improve feather quality but never seen a difference in shade of lavender.
IDK it's one of those ideas that people just pass on and pass on without really knowing usually.

Nope. I raise mutts of various patterns and for the past three years, I've been breeding for blue w/laying ability (and I don't like splash, so I use black anyway) small combs, and broodiness, in about that order. I haven't touched Lavender, and I do not intend to do so.

Everything I've been reading was theoretical. But I find it interesting that England has apparently produced several lavender lines unaffected by ragged feathers. This leads me to believe that it's something that can be bred out. I don't know about lightening/darkening Lavender, but I assume it's the same principle as reducing brassiness in silver--breeding for the best and culling relentlessly.

I breed show birds and eventually dropped my lavender d’Anvers because I hate the ragged feathering.
But some observations I did make were
1. My two females that express blue as well as lavender didn’t express feather shredding for some reason. Every other bird did. I’m not really sure what the reason for that was.
2. I outcrossed to blacks and produced impressively dark slate legs and decent color. Many breeders of lavender d’Anvers get very pale, almost pink legs. This did not prevent feather shredding, however.