Isbar thread

[atmaclean]

That was my suspicion as well.

I had someone mention to me that he thought other breeds had been bred into them so it could be a possibility that it happened at some point in the chain. Is there anything in the Isbar that could carry the rumpless gene? If my roos are not, what are the odds of chicks coming out with the rumpless gene?

I have one blue Isbar baby that has a tuft on its head! I was told they are not pure Isbars, but they look identical to all the pictures that I can find of young Isbars and the parents also have all the characteristics of Isbars. I guess I will never know.

 

[Odelia]

No Araucana blood on Isbars,

Omega hill farms say:

~~Isbar Chickens (pronounced “Ice Bar”) were created by a Catholic Monk named Martin Silverudd. He is believed to have crossed the Rhode Island Red, New Hampshire and the sex link Cream Legbar chicken breeds to create the Isbar Chicken.

Here is the link to their site with this information:
http://omegahillsfarm.com/product-category/isbar/

Wikipedia says:

~~Cream Legbars were developed in the 1930s in Cambridge by crossing Brown Leghorns, Barred Plymouth Rocks and Araucana (for the egg colour}.

Here is the link to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_Legbar

The Araucana was used to create the Cream Legbar. Then the Cream Legbar was used to create the Blue Isbar. That would mean that the Blue Isbar gets is lovely colored eggs from the Araucana. What am I missing?

 

[nicalandia]

Wikipedia says:

~~Cream Legbars were developed in the 1930s in Cambridge by crossing Brown Leghorns, Barred Plymouth Rocks and Araucana (for the egg colour}.

Here is the link to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_Legbar

The Araucana was used to create the Cream Legbar. Then the Cream Legbar was used to create the Blue Isbar. That would mean that the Blue Isbar gets is lovely colored eggs from the Araucana. What am I missing?

Wikipedia is Wrong,

Dr. Punnett created the Cream Legbar using Native Chilean stock, he called them "Mongrels" that had Single comb, had Tailes and had all kinds of color, so no, No Real Araucana was used, this birds were not Rumpless so there is no way this gene could be hiding in the Blue Isbars

 

[Odelia]

Wikipedia is Wrong,

Dr. Punnett created the Cream Legbar using Native Chilean stock, he called them "Mongrels" that had Single comb, had Tailes and had all kinds of color, so no, No Real Araucana was used, this birds were not Rumpless so there is no way this gene could be hiding in the Blue Isbars

Am I mistaken in believing that Araucanas originate from Chile as well? If Dr. Punnett used mix breed chickens from Chile and the Araucana comes from Chile how are we at this point in history to know if those mixed breed birds he used did or did not have Araucana in them or not? Has anyone done a genetic test to determine this? Also do you have the link to where the birds he did use are described?

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
while Chile was the cradle of the Araucana, it was also the cradle of the blue egg shell breeds that may have not been documented at the time, Araucana and blue egg shell gene are not synonym, Infact the proof that the chilean stock Dr. Punnets got his hand on is, the Blue egg shell this breed laid was not linked to the Pea comb, this birds were all single combs, the P-O linkage is about 3 centimorgan making the chance of getting a single comb blue egg shell laying hes is only 3%.. here is Dr. punnets 1933 description of the bird, http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/27/465.pdf now on the following paper he describes the chilean stock as single comb and makes experiments with Rosecomb hamburgs

source http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/48/327.pdf

 

[nicalandia]

here the whole "Evident Mongrels" remark by Dr. Punnett

 

[Odelia]

here the whole "Evident Mongrels" remark by Dr. Punnett

This clearly states that the Chilean birds that he used to infuse blue eggs in his later crosses were both hens.

now on the following paper he describes the chilean stock as single comb and makes experiments with Rosecomb hamburgs

I don't understand your assessment that this says the Chilean stock was single combed.
This says that he took a single combed non-crested male that proved to not be a carrier of the blue eggs. He crossed it with 4 females who were rose combed, crested, and layers of blue eggs.

This single combed, un-crested, non-blue egg rooster is not his original Chilean stock. He only started with 2 Chilean hens. This is obviously a crossing using later generations of birds and not the original stock.

 

[nicalandia]

This clearly states that the Chilean birds that he used to infuse blue eggs in his later crosses were both hens.


I don't understand your assessment that this says the Chilean stock was single combed.
This says that he took a single combed non-crested male that proved to not be a carrier of the blue eggs.

if you understood how the P(p+ on this case) - O linkage works you would understand what I am trying to say

 

[Odelia]

if you understood how the P(p+ on this case) - O linkage works you would understand what I am trying to say

I don't need to understand the P(p+ on this case)-O linkage to see that if you don't like the question being asked that you use genetic's jargon in a condescending manner and don't actually answer the question. I also can read. The information you have sited has clearly stated that the Chilean stock consisted of a three hens but one quickly died leaving him only two hens who both laid blue eggs. You then say "now on the following paper he describes the chilean stock as single comb and makes experiments with Rosecomb hamburgs." The paper right below it states that he used a single comb, non-crested, non-blue egg carrier Rooster and mated it with 4 rose combed, crested, blue egg laying hens. This is a cross he did in 1933 and he got the original hens in 1930. This is describing the birds he used in an experiment relating to the cream color he sometimes got in his plumage. This is not a description of his Chilean stock as you stated. If you have access to a more detailed description of the original bird that would be great! The only description of the two original hens I have seen is that they were mongrels that varied widely in plumage and structural features that both laid blue eggs. I am very interested in this breed and would like to learn more about them. If anyone else has researched more about this breed or its ancestor the Cream Legbars and how they got their lovely colored eggs please share. It is a fun mystery for the BYC community to answer with our combined knowledge.


Originally Posted by nicalandia

 

[nicalandia]

I don't need to understand the P(p+ on this case)-O linkage to see that if you don't like the question being asked that you use genetic's jargon in a condescending manner and don't actually answer the question. I also can read. The information you have sited has clearly stated that the Chilean stock consisted of a three hens but one quickly died leaving him only two hens who both laid blue eggs. You then say "now on the following paper he describes the chilean stock as single comb and makes experiments with Rosecomb hamburgs." The paper right below it states that he used a single comb, non-crested, non-blue egg carrier Rooster and mated it with 4 rose combed, crested, blue egg laying hens. This is a cross he did in 1933 and he got the original hens in 1930. This is describing the birds he used in an experiment relating to the cream color he sometimes got in his plumage. This is not a description of his Chilean stock as you stated. If you have access to a more detailed description of the original bird that would be great! The only description of the two original hens I have seen is that they were mongrels that varied widely in plumage and structural features that both laid blue eggs. I am very interested in this breed and would like to learn more about them. If anyone else has researched more about this breed or its ancestor the Cream Legbars and how they got their lovely colored eggs please share. It is a fun mystery for the BYC community to answer with our combined knowledge.


Originally Posted by nicalandia

first, the FACT that you dont see any Pea Comb, Rumpless, tufted bird described by Dr. punnett SHOULD be an indication that we are NOT dealing with Araucana, not matter how much you want this to be.. second the pea comb gene is linked to the blue egg shell gene by 3 centimorgan, that meas there is 3% chance of a single bird to have the blue egg shell gene while there is a 97% chance of pea combed birds to have the blue egg shell gene, say Dr. Punnett after 2 years he bred 100 birds out of the original stock, how come he only selected that 3%, did he do it on purpose? when couldnt he grabed a pea comb bird instead?

second, Unless you or I go back in time and ask Mr. Calud Elliot if his "Mongrels" were actually Araucana and Dr. Punnett was just not paying attention when describing the birds we will never now for sure, but so far the description by Dr. Punnett does not help on making the case for "Araucana" Ancestor to the cream legbar, in any case have you seen a Rumpless Cream Legbar? I havent