Isbar thread

Pics
first, the FACT that you dont see any Pea Comb, Rumpless, tufted bird described by Dr. punnett SHOULD be an indication that we are NOT dealing with Araucana, not matter how much you want this to be.. second the pea comb gene is linked to the blue egg shell gene by 3 centimorgan, that meas there is 3% chance of a single bird to have the blue egg shell gene while there is a 97% chance of pea combed birds to have the blue egg shell gene, say Dr. Punnett after 2 years he bred 100 birds out of the original stock, how come he only selected that 3%, did he do it on purpose? when couldnt he grabed a pea comb bird instead?

second, Unless you or I go back in time and ask Mr. Calud Elliot if his "Mongrels" were actually Araucana and Dr. Punnett was just not paying attention when describing the birds we will never now for sure, but so far the description by Dr. Punnett does not help on making the case for "Araucana" Ancestor to the cream legbar, in any case have you seen a Rumpless Cream Legbar? I havent
I am not the one stating "facts" about the history of this bird. You say that the original birds had single combs. Ok I am not saying that is wrong. I am asking you to show me where you found that information. The proof you showed was not proof and instead of showing how you know that the original birds had single combs you get hostile. It clearly stated that the original birds where bred to a hamburg who do have rose combs. That is where I assume these descendants would have gotten it. I do not see where he stated what type of comb the original birds had or if they had the same type. You are the one claiming to be the expert not I. The fact that he only used 4 bird for his experiment does lead one to believe that he was picking very specific possibly recessive traits. The fact that there is only a 3% chance of getting that comb does not disprove anything. Birds are mature in 6 months. In a three year period he had several generations to pick from. Breeding birds was what he did.

Here is a link to someone who did have a rumpless Legbar.

http://forums.thepoultrykeeper.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25273



The birds R.C. Punnett used were collected by Clarence Elliott. Here is a link to a biography about him.

http://plants.jstor.org/person/bm000116053

It says:
"Three blue egg laying Araucana hens he brought back from Patagonia were used by R.C. Punnett at Cambridge University in genetic studies of poultry. Descendants of these breeding experiments are now used to produce pastel coloured eggs for the plate."



Here is another history of the Legbars.
http://blue-eggs.co.uk/#/history-of-cream-legbars/4554275782

"These were bred to the line of blue laying hens that Professor Punnett's experimental matings had produced, and in time a crested, blue egg laying, autosexing breed was selected out and named the Crested Cream Legbar - the crest being a the tuft of feathers on the crest of the head behind the comb a feature derived from the South American blood."

"Some years later the Chilean blue egg laying fowl of the Araucana Indians were introduced into both USA and Britain and became standardized as Araucana which lays a blue or turquoise green coloured egg."




Here is another site.
https://www.omlet.co.uk/breeds/chickens/cream+legbar/

"The Cream Legbar is a crested chicken which is a true autosexing breed which means that you can tell the sex of the chicks by the colour of the feathers. It is an old pure breed which originated in the 1930s as a cross between Brown Leghorns and Barred Rock with some Araucana blood in them."



Here is another link.
http://www.legbarsofbroadway.co.uk/index.php/our-hens/the-origins/

"The blue egg made its debut at Cambridge University in 1929, when Prof. R. Punnett acquired three mongrel Chilean hens (Araucanas) which laid blue and green eggs, from explorer and botanist, Clarence Elliott, whose family still live in the Cotswolds. It would be, however, another ten years before Punnett would use the offspring of these original blue egg layers to make the Cream Legbar during his experiments on producing auto-sexing chickens."

Here is another.
http://www.rarepoultrybreedersassociation.com/breeds-in-focus.html

"The Legbar is also quite remarkable among autosexing breeds in that it is standardised in three colour varieties - gold, silver and cream - and it is acknowledged that the cream was not developed in the same manner as the other two varieties, there being an infusion of Araucana blood in this variety, which gives it a crest, and in its country of origin, lays a blue, green or olive egg."



Here is the history of the Araucana.
http://www.cashsblueeggs.com/araucanahistory.htm

"The Araucana chickens originated in an area of Chile ruled by the Araucana indians. The Araucana chicken is a combination of two distinct breeds. The Collonocas, and the Quetros. The "Collonocas" laid blue eggs and were rumpless. The "Quetros", had tufts a tail and laid brown eggs. Over time a combination of these two breeds created the Araucana, a breed that is rumpless, tufted, and lays blue eggs."


It seems to me that every where I look the general consensus is that the birds that R.C. Punnett used and the Araucana both got their blue eggs from the same Chilean birds raised by the local tribes. That would be the Collonocas. It laid blue eggs and was rumples. The Cream Legbar got its egg color and crest from these Chilean mongrels. So no it was not an Araucana, but the ancestor to the Araucana. I don't see anyone else claiming that the bird used were some other now extinct undocumented breed of chicken that also laid colored eggs. The birds he used were not pure Collonocas but as he stated they were mongrels who did not look like each other. What type of combs these mongrels had and if they had the same type of comb is unknown as R.C. Punnett does not seem to have passed that information on.
 
It seems to me that every where I look the general consensus is that the birds that R.C. Punnett used and the Araucana both got their blue eggs from the same Chilean birds raised by the local tribes. That would be the Collonocas. It laid blue eggs and was rumples. The Cream Legbar got its egg color and crest from these Chilean mongrels. So no it was not an Araucana, but the ancestor to the Araucana. I don't see anyone else claiming that the bird used were some other now extinct undocumented breed of chicken that also laid colored eggs. The birds he used were not pure Collonocas but as he stated they were mongrels who did not look like each other. What type of combs these mongrels had and if they had the same type of comb is unknown as R.C. Punnett does not seem to have passed that information on.
I agree, but to call them Araucana is just not appropriate as Dr. Punnett clearly called them Mongrles, now I agree that these mongrels shared blood(or genes) with Araucanas as they lived on the same Geographical location, I find it interesting to see How Araucana breeders take pride on this fact(that this bird should share a common ancestor ) While if it was an Ameraucana that was implied they(Ameraucana breeders) would be up in Arms saying how this Mongrels were actually Easter Eggers...


in any case we can agree that Dr. Punnett didnt documented them as Araucanas, the comb type is of no concern at this moment its just subject of our conversation..
 
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I agree, but to call them Araucana is just not appropriate as Dr. Punnett clearly called them Mongrles, now I agree that these mongrels shared blood(or genes) with Araucanas as they lived on the same Geographical location, I find it interesting to see How Araucana breeders take pride on this fact(that this bird should share a common ancestor ) While if it was an Ameraucana that was implied they would be up in Arms saying how this Mongrels were actually Easter Eggers...


in any case we can agree that Dr. Punnett didnt documented them as Araucanas, the comb type is of no concern at this moment its just subject of our conversation..

The bird that they share in common is the collonocas that had the colored eggs and was rumples. This would explain how the Isbar in question (and the other persons legbar) could have come out rumples. Otherwise I would assume someone breed their line to an Araucana to improve the egg color.
 
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its a very long shot, but not impossible to go from Colloncas > Punnetts Mongrels > Cream Legbar> Isabar without a Hefty amount of Rumpless birds documented in such a long history, its on the lower end of mathematical probability,
 
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I AM on the lower end of mathematical probability. I once got a flat tire in the parking lot of firestone tire.....and they were closed early for training. True story....I had to wait three hours for AAA and you should have heard the silence on the other end of the phone when I told them where I was stuck....The genetics sure are interesting. My rumpless Isbar in question is a pullet, so in a few months it will be interesting to see what her egg color is like! I will try to get better pics of her tomorrow.
 
I AM on the lower end of mathematical probability. I once got a flat tire in the parking lot of firestone tire.....and they were closed early for training. True story....I had to wait three hours for AAA and you should have heard the silence on the other end of the phone when I told them where I was stuck....The genetics sure are interesting. My rumpless Isbar in question is a pullet, so in a few months it will be interesting to see what her egg color is like! I will try to get better pics of her tomorrow.
Question, can you hold her on your hand? if you are able, then try to locate the Coccyx bone with your hands? if you can that means that the bird in question is just a late tail bloomer, I had a cochin pullet that took for ever to even grow a tail feather, but the coccyx was there, I had to make shure
 
Question, can you hold her on your hand? if you are able, then try to locate the Coccyx bone with your hands? if you can that means that the bird in question is just a late tail bloomer, I had a cochin pullet that took for ever to even grow a tail feather, but the coccyx was there, I had to make shure

I'll try to catch her tomorrow!
 
Has anyone ever heard of a rumpless Isbar? The little girl in the middle below is 8 weeks old and has never had a single tail feather. I was planning on doing some local breeding and now I'm not sure I can breed her. The other four look normal. I know there isn't a "breed standard" per say, but I thought tails were kind of important! Thoughts on what could have happened? Should I still breed her since there isn't a SOP to be held to?


I didn't ask where you got her. Do you have the parents?
 
I got her from a respected breeder. I am definitely not accusing him of anything, but who knows what could have happened down the line. He is interested in it also and said he has not seen anything like it before!
I was reading that one of the ways you can have a rumples chicken is if the egg was handled to roughly and the chick was damaged during incubation. Please let us know if you or the breeder gets any more chicks like this. If you do then it isn't a random fluke from incubation, but something in the birds genetics.
 

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