Java Thread

[Poultry Friend]

As to the Auburns:

It is just as likely that the Auburns resulted from infusions of RIR or some production breed as to long latent recessive genes. As a matter of fact it is MORE LIKELY that they came from RIRs or Production Reds than those long latent recessive genes!!!

Call them what they are and don't make up some good chicken story. They are a new coloration on an old breed.

Monte has been breeding lots of Javas for years now and never has such a bird appeared.
I bred them a long time too as did Mary Ann and no such thing happened.
MA and I aren't breeding them any longer but Monte still is.

As recent as 3 years ago Monte was having to send Garfield Farm birds because theirs had deteritotated so.

Saladin, I am not sure if you are on the Yahoo Java group of not, but this was posted there:



Quote:
I am also not sure how much you know about genetics, but assuming that the Black Javas are E/E (which would be likely) and that arrangement would never show any other patterns other then mottled.

The historic documents do mention a red colored Java. So that gene was present. It is likely it was eb/eb with other modifiers.

Those colors were lost, and could be very easily. If there were only a few birds with the red color in a flock of blacks, then those resulting chicks would be E/eb and would be pure black and not show other modifiers.

If only a few of those chicks got sold into another flock, then it is possible that you would not see it expressed until that gene was in a closed flock with chicks being bred together. Not only that, but with how genes are passed on, you could need to hatch thousands of chicks before you got a few with that coloration. In addition, an eb/eb bird with no other modifiers would also appear black. You would then need to get a Black Java that is carrying those modifiers into that flock.

And then, you also have a lot of breeders who will cull birds with any odd coloration. Which would make it even harder for those colors to be expressed.

I can understand the skepticism over the Auburns or Silvers and for that reason, I am making sure I do not cross my Blacks with them so I will make sure to never sell a bird with those genes to someone who feels that they are a result of hybrid breeding.

 

[Poultry Friend]

As to Java Standards in other countries:

Any country has the right to have their Standard read as they like. To argue otherwise is ridiculous especially since Americans/Canadians have done this very thing for years with our own Standard. Though it may seem to make sense that the country of origin should be the reference guide there is more to it than that. Life is never as simple as some would like to make it.

True. I am not saying we are able (or should) dictate to another country what they can breed or how it should look, but no matter where you go in the world to buy a Dalmation puppy, it will have spots. Likewise, a Bulldog will have a similar body build, even if some places they have them taller and with a longer snout.

Without a standard of some kind, you do not have breeds, you only have chickens (or dogs, cats, horses, ect)

 

[saladin]

A good story goes a long way doesn't it! That post is absolutely incredible.

Here are the facts:
Dr Albert McGraw, whom your article doesn't even name, is THE MAN responsible for the rescue/saving of the Java breed... at least the best flocks out there.

How could they be genetically different than Giants since they were the breed at the foundation of the Giants.

How do you (or anyone else for that matter) know what was put into the Java before Garfield Farm rec'd them 17 years before that post?

As a matter of fact, I do know that Craig Russell put several things into the Java in a grading project to get their size and egg size up to par. Those birds were then the foundation for many present flocks. Did some go to Urch? I'm not sure. I'll ask though.

There are a few of us chicken breeders who have supplied chicks/birds to the existing hatcheries in the past at their request to help their birds get back up to par. I've done this with Cubalayas and other, including Craig, have done this with other breeds especially with Javas.


A good yarn goes a long way I guess. It proves that people are gulible and will believe anything in print.
Now I just have to think about would to spin in that nex BP article I write. LOL.

Please don't believe everything you read. In that particular post, I'd start questioning things from the first sentence. That doesn't mean there aren't truths there too. Like, Garfield Farms has hatched 17,000 chicks. Or, they haven't added anything into their flock. (Not exactly true. They have added Monte's birds at least once maybe twice and some of Monte's stock originally came from Criag).

What I'm saying is simply this.
1. The colors being produced in some flocks of Javas are much more likely to be from what was added than some throwback to the past.
2. Number 1 is true because Grading is a proven method for improving a flock.
3. Grading has been used by breeders in as recent as the last 30 years to bring the Java back.

With those 3 statements all the talk of 'reestablishing' these nonrecognized colors based on latent recessives is nothing more than a good chicken story.
If folks want to 'recreate' some nonrecognized colors then I have no problem with that whatsoever. It doesn't make for as good a story, but at least it is the truth.

I myself have had to rewrite article because something closer to the truth than what I first present is made known to me. I have no problem with doing that. I'm just amazed at those who would hold so tenaciously to what is obviously not the truth!

 

[Poultry Friend]

A good story goes a long way doesn't it! That post is absolutely incredible.

Here are the facts:
Dr Albert McGraw, whom your article doesn't even name, is THE MAN responsible for the rescue/saving of the Java breed... at least the best flocks out there.

How could they be genetically different than Giants since they were they breed at the foundation of the Giants.

How do you (or anyone else for that matter) know what was put into the Java before Garfield Farm rec'd them 17 years before that post?

As a matter of fact, I do know that Craig Russell put several things into the Java in a grading project to get their size and egg size up to par. Those birds were then the foundation for many present flocks. Did some go to Urch? I'm not sure. I'll ask though.

There are a few of us chicken breeders who have supplied chicks/birds to the existing hatcheries in the past at their request to help their birds get back up to par. I've done this with Cubalayas and other, including Craig, have done this with other breeds especially with Javas.


A good yarn goes a long way I guess. It proves that people are gulible and will believe anything in print.
Now I just have to think about would to spin in that net BP article I write. LOL.

Please don't believe everything you read. In that particular post, I'd start questioning things from the first sentence. That doesn't mean there aren't truths there too. Like, Garfield Farms has hatched 17,000 chicks. Or, they haven't added anything into their flock. (Not exactly true. They have added Monte's birds at least once maybe twice and some of Monte's stock originally came from Criag).

What I'm saying is simply this.
1. The colors being produced in some flocks of Javas are much more likely to be from what was added than some throwback to the past.
2. Number 1 is true because Grading is a proven method for improving a flock.
3. Grading has been used by breeders in as recent as the last 30 years to bring the Java back.

With those 3 statements all the talk of 'reestablishing' these nonrecognized colors based on latent recessives is nothing more than a good chicken story.
If folks want to 'recreate' some nonrecognized colors then I have no problem with that whatsoever. It doesn't make for as good a story, but at least it is the truth.

I myself have had to rewrite article because something closer to the truth than what I first present is made known to me. I have no problem with doing that. I'm just amazed at those who would hold so tenaciously to what is obviously not the truth!

Wow. Maybe you should try to be a little more condescending and rude. I never said I knew everything, but I think it is ridiculous that you have decided that you know the entire truth and everyone who thinks differently then you is a complete moron.

Never mind. An exchange of ideas is one thing, being outright attacked is another.

 

[saladin]

I never considered it condescending to tell the truth. Apparently there are those who do.

 

[saladin]

Since many do seem to be interested in the Java breed here are some basics that should help as you read what others post.


Dr Albert McGraw was 'the' Java man in American for many years. He raised his line of Javas for many decades in Alabama. He has since passed away. I am not certain what happen to his flock, but I think Glenn Drowns rec'd some of his birds. I will have to call Glenn to verify it. If mistaken I will post that information. I do know that Glenn rec'd some of his original birds from stock that had been in Craig Russell's hands. I will have to call Craig to find out the original source for his birds.

The Urch/Turnlund Hatchery birds have been a closed and seperate flock for more than 40 years.

The University of Iowa study sited by Jim Ward was 'not conclusive.' If you'd like to read the original article where this is published then go to feathersite>chickens>java> and click on the article on the status of the Java. Further, the article only compares the Urch line of Javas with Black Jersey Giants. There are other lines of Javas and many old timers would tell you that the original Black Jersey Giants were nothing more than leggy Javas! The article actual states the following,

'In order to help prove to poultry scientists that these Javas were a pure strain, I was forced to do genetic testing. I was very fortunate that Dr. Lamont at the University of Iowa is very interested in poultry conservation and agreed to perform the tests. The tests compared blood samples from Garfield's Javas with samples from Barred Rocks, Black Jersey Giants, Australorps, and birds from Duane Urch's parent flock of Javas.
The tests were not conclusive because they involved such a small number of birds. Test results did, however, conclude that there is a definite possibility all of the Black Javas studied are a purebred line. The study also concluded that there were several distinct lineages present within the Garfield flock and that these Javas are genetically different from the Black Jersey Giants. These results make sense because the Urch flock was acquired from Florida resident Howard Tallman in the late 1950's or early 1960's and has been a closed flock since that time'.​

Garfield Farms under Peter Malmberg indeed did the Java a great service. Since his retirement things have not been the same; though I understand they are getting better (as it concerns the Java).

In recent years, two of the best sources for Javas have been Monte Bowen and Glenn Drowns. (Jim Ward's birds came from Monte). The Urch birds are also good but they are much smaller than Monte's birds.

Monte has hatched in excess of 4,000 chicks in the last decade not counting all the hatching eggs he has sent out to folks. Not once has there been an Auburn chick hatched.

Duane Urch has hatched thousands upon thousands of Java chicks from his closed flock in the last 40 chicks. There has never been a report of an Auburn chick. Remember, his birds were the foundation birds for Garfield Farms.

 

[FiveMoreMiles]

I wouldn't say there is no interest I for one have just remained silent tell i get my breeding flock to meet the slandered of perfection.
I have black java's my incubator has two small batches of eggs in it now.
Things I have observed in my flock
They start to lay early
They lay eggs later in the year than my RIR. and take less light to keep them laying
There eggs are smaller than my RIR so i will work on that.
They go broody
They taste great and have good weight to their carcass.
the hens are very calm but the rosters are aggressive and will fight you and other rosters. it was really hard when the best roster i had last year got culled because he attacked me when i went in to the pen. just last month i had two rosters fight through the fence and my best rooster got his neck hurt. I collected eggs from his hens and started the incubator thinking he would have to be put down. He recovered and is doing fine and he will have chicks hatch about Christmas.
By next year at this time i should have2 families with 30 hens in each that meet the standard of perfection.

 

[Poultry Friend]

the hens are very calm but the rosters are aggressive and will fight you and other rosters. it was really hard when the best roster i had last year got culled because he attacked me when i went in to the pen. just last month i had two rosters fight through the fence and my best rooster got his neck hurt. I collected eggs from his hens and started the incubator thinking he would have to be put down. He recovered and is doing fine and he will have chicks hatch about Christmas.
By next year at this time i should have2 families with 30 hens in each that meet the standard of perfection.

I have 5 roosters right now and 4 of them are all together. The lady I got the other one from had him in with 3 others. None of my Javas have a mean bone in them or have fought with eachother.

Where did you get your birds from?

 

[FiveMoreMiles]

I don't have problems with the rosters when they are in the broiler pen it is when they have a harem to protect that the fight comes out.
I got my first Java chicks from Duane Urch. I may be spelling his name wrong
I was able to get Jim Adkins to come out to the ranch while he was here judging the fair and teach me what to cull.
he looked over my bared rocks told me to start over
told me to do the same with my Delaware's
told me i was doing good with my RIR and pointed out the reds week points
by this time i was not very excited to show him the Javas
when he saw them His eyes got really big the excitment in his voice was easy to hear.
we then culled all but 12 hens and three rosters

that really gave me a good understanding of the breed and what to cull

 

[saladin]

I spoke with Craig Russell yesterday. Here is what he told me.

He started with 3 different strain of Javas: Urch, McGraw and one other in the late 80s early 90s. To these he added Henry Miller's black chickens which were, as he stated, 'very Java like.'

The Javas at the point Craig began with them were very small but the Mottleds were the larger of the two. He bred them together to get the size up on the Blacks.

If you have Blacks today that throw Mottleds then there is a good chance you have birds that were once in Craig's hands.

He sold birds all over the country, but mostly in VA, PA, IL, OH and NY. He did sell some to Blackberry Farms who then supplied Garfield Farms with birds. It is interesting that in all the articles on or by Garfield Farms these birds are not mentioned. They generally only mention the Urch birds.

Craig also gave some to Ed Hart. The descendants of these birds ended up with Glenn Drowns (Sandhills). Craig wasn't sure if Glenn rec'd Dr McGraw's birds, but the McGraw line is represented in the SandHills line through Craig's birds that went there.

I called Glenn but wasn't able to get him. I do have some birds for him again this year; so, I expect to be hearing from him in the next couple of weeks.

I hope this helps with the Java history.