Java Thread

[masked rider]

The black javas I got from Duane Urch in January are happy, healthy, productive black birds that mostly look like black javas. (I did get one "leggy blonde" cockerel with unusually long legs and a lot of auburn and gold hackle feathers. He dressed out at 4 pounds at 7 months old.) The meat has been tasty. I get 4-8 eggs a day out of 8 pullets. They've backed off lately, I think they are getting ready to molt. The cockerels have been molting for a few weeks now. But I'm still getting 4 eggs/day out of the 8 pullets. 7 pullets if you don't count the broody who has been sitting on eggs for a couple of weeks. In terms of providing meat and eggs for a family, Mr. Urch's birds are fantastic.

Edited to add the pullets started laying at 4 months old.

Hi, please don't take my posts as a neg on Mr. Urch's birds. I did not get my birds from him directly, so I really cannot speak to the quality of his birds. It sounds like from your post you were very happy with the production and look of the birds you got from him. Maybe that is where I need to start. Cull what I have and start over.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote: I didn't take it as a negative. Over the last several months I've been brutally honest about the flaws I've seen in my birds, and I wanted to let people know that despite those flaws they are some darned nice birds, and they are healthy and productive. Mr. Urch has done a good job of maintaining them as good dual purpose egg producers and meat birds. Which is the main purpose of the breed. On the other hand, my birds are a good five years from being what I want to see at a show. I may be pickier than some folks. My biggest issue is the lack of yellow in the soles of most of my birds. For various reasons I have had to cull all but one of my yellow-soled birds, which were only a small percentage of the chicks I received to begin with. Lack of yellow in the soles is a disqualification for Black Javas, so while it seems like a minor color fault to most people it is a serious problem if you want to show the birds.

If you are looking for good productive dual purpose java-like birds and don't care as much about showing right away, Mr. Urch's birds are hard to beat. And the genetics in a straight run of 25 of his chicks should be a good basis for developing your own show strain in a few years. They aren't perfect birds. But they will give you good eggs and meat while you are working to get them more show-worthy. And maybe you'll get lucky, and get a lot more yellow-soled birds than I wound up with. And more pullets, too. As luck would have it I wound up with a 2:1 ratio of cockerels to pullets. But I have been eating very well as all those cockerels have grown out. It's all good...

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
You might want to hold off on culling the birds you already have if it is just color issues that are bothering you. If your existing birds have Urch line in them and the problem is productivity, you might be able to add some birds from Mr. Urch to improve productivity without messing up your existing birds too much. It sounds like they have some of the same color flaws.

My Urch birds have the following color/cosmetic issues: Few of the birds have yellow soles - maybe 20% of the original 25 chicks, and only one yellow-soled bird left out of 15 remaining. About 10% of the birds have dark eyes. (Most have reddish bay eyes.). At least half of the cockerels have some white near the base of the tail feathers. Most of the birds - maybe 2/3? - have incorrect undercolor (gray or white instead of dull black). About 10% of the cockerels have shown some auburn in their hackles. Virtually all of my birds have some degree of purple barring (the expression of which may be affected by feed quality, condition, and dust, according to some of the long-term breeders I respect, so I may be able to reduce that problem in the future by using different management techniques and some shampoo.) Virtually all of my pullets have cushions that visually mess up the back line. But structurally the birds are pretty good. Structure is what really counts. Even with all those issues, the birds still look like javas when they are running around the yard. The color issues aren't noticeable until you're up close and personal.

In other words, don't cull what you have until you know you can get something better... the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side of the fence... just different ;-)

 

[saladin]

Sound advice!

 

[masked rider]

You might want to hold off on culling the birds you already have if it is just color issues that are bothering you. If your existing birds have Urch line in them and the problem is productivity, you might be able to add some birds from Mr. Urch to improve productivity without messing up your existing birds too much. It sounds like they have some of the same color flaws.

My Urch birds have the following color/cosmetic issues: Few of the birds have yellow soles - maybe 20% of the original 25 chicks, and only one yellow-soled bird left out of 15 remaining. About 10% of the birds have dark eyes. (Most have reddish bay eyes.). At least half of the cockerels have some white near the base of the tail feathers. Most of the birds - maybe 2/3? - have incorrect undercolor (gray or white instead of dull black). About 10% of the cockerels have shown some auburn in their hackles. Virtually all of my birds have some degree of purple barring (the expression of which may be affected by feed quality, condition, and dust, according to some of the long-term breeders I respect, so I may be able to reduce that problem in the future by using different management techniques and some shampoo.) Virtually all of my pullets have cushions that visually mess up the back line. But structurally the birds are pretty good. Structure is what really counts. Even with all those issues, the birds still look like javas when they are running around the yard. The color issues aren't noticeable until you're up close and personal.

In other words, don't cull what you have until you know you can get something better... the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side of the fence... just different ;-)

Thanks... that is good advice. It is sad to me that the genetics of this historic breed are in such disarray at this point that people are struggling to find a bird with the one identification mark of yellow soles that says I am Java. How did it come to this?

 

[Extra Java]

I'm sorry to announce the passing of Mr. Robert Blosl "Bob". He will be greatly missed.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/832089/bob-blosl-is-gone

 

[Extra Java]

When you look at shank color, remember you are seeing feathers/follicles, scales, upper or sub dermal. Pink foot pad = white skin. Java should have yellow skin which is why the yellow foot pad is required.

Skin color has their own genes W is dominant white and inhibits yellow carotinoid deposition in skin. ww will have yellow skin.
Shank color is the result of a combination of up to 5 genes.

If a chicken has white feathers, rather than black, then the shank will look lighter.
White Java have Willow shanks most with with BRIGHT yellow foot pads. Some have a "swarthy" looking shanks...appearing more yellow with willow tones still present on the scales.

It has also been said that there are other undocumented genes affecting shank color. When I bred Blacks and Whites together as test matings, I found the black offspring had PERFECT shank/foot/eye color but the sheen (of the blacks) was dull...this is easily corrected by crossing back to blacks. I have hatched hundreds of chicks from both Urch & Garfield. Garfield has the best shank/foot/eye color with much higher ratios of correctness (color-wise). There are other lines out there as well each with it's own challenges.

For the Black Java and it's unique shank/foot/skin color I propose some of the combinations of genes related to eye color are directly related to skin color. You will find that the more yellow shanked birds will have the lighter eye color and the white skinned birds have dark eyes.


Here's some additional info:

The shank/feet color is controlled by genes that affect the skin at different depths. The visible color is due to the combined effect of the different colors of the dermis and the epidermis. So, the shank/feet colors are a combination of upper skin and deeper skin pigmentations. The following table gives the shank/feet colors that result from the major gene combinations (the bird has two copies of each gene). It is important to remember that other genes can modify shank and foot color. For example, the sex-linked barring gene, B, is a potent inhibitor of dermal melanin. The Barred Plymouth Rocks, for example, would not have light shanks and feet if it were not for the fact that they have sex-linked barring. The female Barred Rocks tend to have darker shanks due to the dose effect of the barring gene. The following table is intended as a guide but should not be considered to be absolute, since (as mentioned) other genes, such as sex-linked barring, can modify shank/foot color.

Some Basic Shank/Feet Color Genetics

Shank/Foot Color Genes
Near black with white soles W+, Id, E
White shanks and feet W+, Id, e+
Black shanks, white soles W+, id+, E
Blue shanks, white soles W+, id+, e+
Near black with yellow soles w, Id, E
Yellow shanks and feet w, Id, e+
Black shanks with yellow soles w, id+, E
Green shanks with yellow soles w, id+, e+​

 

[MagicChicken]

When you look at shank color, remember you are seeing feathers/follicles, scales, upper or sub dermal. Pink foot pad = white skin. Java should have yellow skin which is why the yellow foot pad is required.

Skin color has their own genes W is dominant white and inhibits yellow carotinoid deposition in skin. ww will have yellow skin.
Shank color is the result of a combination of up to 5 genes.

If a chicken has white feathers, rather than black, then the shank will look lighter.
White Java have Willow shanks most with with BRIGHT yellow foot pads. Some have a "swarthy" looking shanks...appearing more yellow with willow tones still present on the scales.

It has also been said that there are other undocumented genes affecting shank color. When I bred Blacks and Whites together as test matings, I found the black offspring had PERFECT shank/foot/eye color but the sheen (of the blacks) was dull...this is easily corrected by crossing back to blacks. I have hatched hundreds of chicks from both Urch & Garfield. Garfield has the best shank/foot/eye color with much higher ratios of correctness (color-wise). There are other lines out there as well each with it's own challenges.

For the Black Java and it's unique shank/foot/skin color I propose some of the combinations of genes related to eye color are directly related to skin color. You will find that the more yellow shanked birds will have the lighter eye color and the white skinned birds have dark eyes.


Here's some additional info:

The shank/feet color is controlled by genes that affect the skin at different depths. The visible color is due to the combined effect of the different colors of the dermis and the epidermis. So, the shank/feet colors are a combination of upper skin and deeper skin pigmentations. The following table gives the shank/feet colors that result from the major gene combinations (the bird has two copies of each gene). It is important to remember that other genes can modify shank and foot color. For example, the sex-linked barring gene, B, is a potent inhibitor of dermal melanin. The Barred Plymouth Rocks, for example, would not have light shanks and feet if it were not for the fact that they have sex-linked barring. The female Barred Rocks tend to have darker shanks due to the dose effect of the barring gene. The following table is intended as a guide but should not be considered to be absolute, since (as mentioned) other genes, such as sex-linked barring, can modify shank/foot color.

Some Basic Shank/Feet Color Genetics

Shank/Foot Color Genes
Near black with white soles W+, Id, E
White shanks and feet W+, Id, e+
Black shanks, white soles W+, id+, E
Blue shanks, white soles W+, id+, e+
Near black with yellow soles w, Id, E
Yellow shanks and feet w, Id, e+
Black shanks with yellow soles w, id+, E
Green shanks with yellow soles w, id+, e+​

Thanks. It's good to have this information handy.

 

[MagicChicken]

I am happy to report that my broody produced seven bouncing baby Black Javas last week, and over half of them have yellow soles. That is a big relief. I only have one yellow-soled bird out of 8 pullets and 7 cockerels. This hatch was a random sample of eggs from all or most of the pullets, fathered by the yellow-soled cockerel. Based on the ratio of yellow-soled chicks the pullets must be split for yellow soles (carrying the recessive gene for yellow skin/soles, but showing the dominant gene for white skin/soles). It was a 50% hatch rate. 14 eggs set under the broody. One got broken a week before hatch, 7 hatched healthy chicks, 5 were totally clear and 1 was rotten. (The innards looked more like blended cottage cheese than an egg when I opened it. Glad that wasn't the egg that broke in the nest.)

This was a test hatch to take advantage of a determined broody. Now the more serious breeding begins. The breeding pens are almost ready. First up will be some individual pairings of my two best pullets with the yellow-soled cockerel, then some individual pairings with those two pullets and my biggest, widest cockerel. In a few more years I hope to have larger, wider birds with yellow soles and dark eyes. Then I'll start working on combs and wattles. I'll try to improve the hatch rate over time too. I'd rather it be 75% or higher.

Sarah

 

[bnjrob]

I am happy to report that my broody produced seven bouncing baby Black Javas last week, and over half of them have yellow soles. That is a big relief. I only have one yellow-soled bird out of 8 pullets and 7 cockerels. This hatch was a random sample of eggs from all or most of the pullets, fathered by the yellow-soled cockerel. Based on the ratio of yellow-soled chicks the pullets must be split for yellow soles (carrying the recessive gene for yellow skin/soles, but showing the dominant gene for white skin/soles). It was a 50% hatch rate. 14 eggs set under the broody. One got broken a week before hatch, 7 hatched healthy chicks, 5 were totally clear and 1 was rotten. (The innards looked more like blended cottage cheese than an egg when I opened it. Glad that wasn't the egg that broke in the nest.)

This was a test hatch to take advantage of a determined broody. Now the more serious breeding begins. The breeding pens are almost ready. First up will be some individual pairings of my two best pullets with the yellow-soled cockerel, then some individual pairings with those two pullets and my biggest, widest cockerel. In a few more years I hope to have larger, wider birds with yellow soles and dark eyes. Then I'll start working on combs and wattles. I'll try to improve the hatch rate over time too. I'd rather it be 75% or higher.

Sarah

Woohoo! Aren't you glad you're finally at the point where you can start seeing more fruits of your labors?