Java Thread

[Chickielady]

Java's are so funny!

Our rooster, for some reason inexplicable to me, has determined that the water hose is evil, pure evil! And he chases all the hens FAR away from evil, evil water hose!

So today, I fill up some tinfoil pie plates (the disposable ones), as our chicks are tiny and I didn't want a kiddie pool drowning. I use these same pie plates to serve treats! So I place them strategically around the run in shady spots, favorite spots, etc......and fill them using evil, evil water hose.

They NEVER went into the water! Rooster kept them ALL far away from the suspicious pie plates. He REMEMBERED the hose filled 'em!

So, tomorrow am, I'm getting red grapes (chicken version of chocolate). And plopping red grapes in the water. It'll be irresistable! And I'll fill the pie plates with a watering can instead of evil hose!

Careful of grapes and other small round fruit (ie: cherries, or cherry tomatoes) as the birds can get blocked crop from them.
They gobble the grapes up and the grapes never get chewed so can easily roll down and block the crop.
I have lost a few birds this way.
Chickens have no stomach acid to digest, nor teeth to chew, so the grape rolls right down...be careful.

 

[Chickielady]

Does anyone here know where I can find Javas in NH? I'm especially interested in the Mottled Javas.

Have you looked into the ALBC or the SPPA breeder's directory ?

 

[salzw59]

Is there any way to search for something within one particular thread? Such as this one, lol.

 

[Dirt Farmer]

Does anyone here know where I can find Javas in NH? I'm especially interested in the Mottled Javas.

Maybe check in with DAWN LAND FARM. They have had Java's for a while in NH, but from the look of the website, maybe only Black and White varieties. They may be able to point you to someone local who doesn't advertise.

 

[LaLobaBlanca]

Have you looked into the ALBC or the SPPA breeder's directory ?

I have not what do those stand for so I can google them?

 

[bnjrob]

I have not what do those stand for so I can google them?

Resources:

Java Breeders of America

American Livestock Breeds Conservancy

Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities

You will likely find that it is too late in the year to get any Javas. Because summer weather is hard on chickens, causing them to eat less due to the heat, etc., many reputable breeders do not sell eggs/hatchlings this time of year. And they often sell out quickly when they do have eggs/chicks available.

Your best bet is to talk to someone about your desire for them, and see if they have a waiting list or can tell you when to contact them to get your order in.

 

[The Old Yolks]

I got my first hatch of SQ Black Javas!!!

4 cute little fuzzy butts. Thank you so much Robin. Saying a prayer to the chicken gods that I get at least 1 hen from the bunch. I seem to be rooster cursed though.

Hope everyone has a terrific day.
Nan

 

[Prairieview]

I have a few questions about the breeding and show Java that hopefully some experienced breeders can answer.


When I read the standard from combs I get "single, rather small, straight and upright, firm on head, lower in front, evenly serrated having five well defined points" I see a lot of cocks with what I would call large almost Leghornesque combs with upwards of seven ill defined points with high fronts. I understand that this is a breed with small numbers and combs should take a lower priority to useful and correct body type, but are combs to standard an issue for this breed? Could someone put up a photo of of a very typey head with an above average head? Is there a historical photo of correct head type?

In mottled Javas there seems to be a great deal of white, way too much in some according to the standard. Has anyone bred light eyed black males to mottled hens to reduce white? Or light eyed black hens to a mottled male?

 

[bnjrob]

I have a few questions about the breeding and show Java that hopefully some experienced breeders can answer.


When I read the standard from combs I get "single, rather small, straight and upright, firm on head, lower in front, evenly serrated having five well defined points" I see a lot of cocks with what I would call large almost Leghornesque combs with upwards of seven ill defined points with high fronts. I understand that this is a breed with small numbers and combs should take a lower priority to useful and correct body type, but are combs to standard an issue for this breed? Could someone put up a photo of of a very typey head with an above average head? Is there a historical photo of correct head type?

In mottled Javas there seems to be a great deal of white, way too much in some according to the standard. Has anyone bred light eyed black males to mottled hens to reduce white? Or light eyed black hens to a mottled male?

In my research, I have not found any photos of show quality Javas that list their traits that conform to SOP and their traits that did not conform to SOP to get a better idea of what the SOP calls for. As I understand it, there are very few Javas shown, due to the dwindling numbers and lack of interest in showing them or breeding to SOP. I have not broken down and bought the latest SOP from the APA to see if there is an actual Java photo in the book to look at.

I have some photos of old Javas/illustrations in the various old (c. late 1800s-early 1900s) poultry books that I have obtained, and I have looked at these and read through the SOP as I eyeball my birds for good/bad traits.

It is my understanding that body type and weight issues have been the most serious flaws in Javas, but combs are also an issue. But with the dwindling numbers of Javas in the last half of the 20th century, and the relatively low percentage points assigned to the comb in a show, the comb hasn't been addressed aggressively in breeding. Of course when you have a breed that darn near went extinct just a few years back - who really cares about a 7 point comb that starts down low over the nose when you're just trying to breed the things so they don't die off?

As for color, the literature that I've reviewed and some of the "old timers" indicate that color is easier to breed for than other traits, and should be worked on last. There are books on breeding for color in poultry - again, I have not spent the money to get them but have been looking at various articles discussing the genes and alleles that make up color in poultry. There is supposed to be a really good book on poultry color genetics that is fairly new, but I think it was around $50 and I wasn't ready to buy it for that price just yet.

A lot of what I found when asking questions is that no one really has a lot of info on Javas. Plus, poultry color genetics is apparently not straight Mendelian genetics (much to my dismay when I researched this), thus it is harder to get what you are looking for by following principles that you would assume apply if you use Mendel's genetics theories (the old pea plant in your 8th grade science book).

The old timers over on the Heritage Fowl thread, while they are not very scientific all the time, they do have some good anecdotal information about chicken breeding and large heritage fowl in general, and they will tell you that it often takes 5 years or more of very specific breeding practices to get the desired issue taken care of that you are trying to breed for. And that is usually with hard culling and hatching large numbers yearly.

White tail and wing feathers are apparently an issue with all colors of Javas - and has been for a hundred+ years. The breeder that I got my mottleds from, showed the rooster father of my mottleds. He ended up winning a first place even with his white tail feathers. The judge told the breeder that in his experience, it was very difficult to get rid of those white tail feathers.

The more that I read in these old poultry books that the old timers seem to swear by, I'm finding that it's still almost a crap shoot at times when working specific traits - especially color. The old poultry books talk about not being surprised when your chickens, including Javas, have color traits that don't even look like the parents that they came from - and it isn't unusual to have odd colors come up. Even when you are doing careful breeding selection.

I've certainly found this to be the case. I've had several, mottled and black, show up with non standard coloring. We discussed coloring on the Heritage Fowl thread a couple of months ago I think, and there are old timers that breed to older SOP - both color and other traits - because they don't think that the today's SOP accurately reflects the best looks for their particular birds.

The theory of breeding with a black carrying the mottled gene is theoretically good, but since chicken coloring isn't that simple, you're still not likely to get the increased black coloring as quickly as I assume you're wanting. Personally, I think I'd probably just pick out better colored mottleds with more black and less white, and then of those, choose the ones with the best body type and see what happens in a few years after careful selection of your breeding stock.

The old poultry books also discuss showing pullets and cockerels with the right coloring, rather than hens and roos because there is no guarantee that the bird is going to keep it's original coloring after several molts. Plus, a good laying hen is likely to have poorer feather quality than a show-only bird. But with your show-only birds, it makes it difficult to perpetuate the line if you aren't having them produce eggs. The practice of pulling out a stray white feather or two has also been discussed in the books. Of course that works better for blacks than mottleds.

Honestly, the SOP is just someone's idea of what they think a chicken should look like. And that can change with the times, as evidenced by changes in the APA's SOP over the years. For Javas, the SOP used to allow the "gypsy face", a dark purple/black color, now it is red only. So if you want to show in today's world, then you'll want to breed to today's SOP. Which means auburns, whites, and some of the other Java color variations that come out are not acceptable.

I've heard from some people that these other colors aren't "true Javas" and that someone must have mixed birds to get them. As I've studied the history of the Java in various old books this year as well as the genetics of chickens, I'm finding that this theory is incorrect. Perhaps these other colors weren't around in times past so that people saw them, but I believe that is related to people culling (killing) anything that did not meet the SOP. Of course even just 50 years ago, if a chicken didn't earn its keep, it was killed. Even poultry fanciers did not have the money to keep chickens that didn't meet the SOP. Today, people have more discretionary money, so they don't kill every chicken that doesn't meet a particular standard - whether the standard is color, or egg production, etc. Thus, I think that is why we are now seeing more colors come out and be known in the Java, than what was seen in years past.

If you have not done so, check out the Heritage Large Fowl thread. It is really more of the place to be if you are interested in serious breeding and discussing SOP issues. I've found that the Java thread is for more casual Java owners and not the serious breeder. Robert and Walt are really good about discussing heritage chickens and breeding even though they don't breed Javas themselves. Robert has even written an article about breeding Javas.

I would also recommend joining the Java Breeders of America. The newsletters are helpful. A recent one discussed Java body type and we got to see the difference in the angle of the "brick" that makes up the Java body type as compared to other "brick" bodied birds, and the long back and tail angle that Javas should be exhibiting.

Just remember that there is no right answer - take all the info you find, decide what you want to follow, and see what happens. Myself, I'm considering working on breeding to the current SOP but I'm also looking at having some breeding done to reflect an older SOP in the Java. Especially after we've had nonstandard coloring showing up in our young black flock, and I've been talking with other breeders that are doing more with the non standard colors as well.

 

[Prairieview]

Honestly what I was looking for is someone who has tried the crossing. I would like to know some breeder input as some in other breeds say breeding mottle carrying blacks to mottles produce the best color. I am wondering if multiple generations of mottles to mottles have caused some coloring issues for people. There are some mottles out there that I have seen with good SOP coloring, and I am wondering if they are using any black mottled carriers. I assume they are being picky about coloring and culling as well.

There is a way a gene interacts on paper and then they way breeders "anecdotally" experience them. Both insights are useful. Breeders of horses that come in grey and black won't breed grey to grey to grey for multiple generations on end as it will create colors that wash out easily. Breeders of roan and red cattle won't breed roan to roan for generations on end either. I am curious if there are is a similarity in this with Javas. Clearly color isn't the easiest thing to breed for otherwise it wouldn't cause so much aggravation.