Jest Another Day in Pear-A-Dice - Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm in Alberta

[Lacy Blues]

Tara, in regard to sex-linked genetics. I'm wondering... I am creating a bantam line in my Andalusians. I was told that the bantam gene is sex-linked to the male. So, this year I'm wondering if every single offspring of that bantam male will carry the bantam gene? I wonder because this year I have lots of offspring from a bantam male with a variety of hens and in some cases, two brothers for instance, are vastly different in size and it is discombobbilatin' me! Got any answers?

 

[CanuckBock]

You are making it mostly clear to me. So I think that you just might be on the right path!
Keep up the good work.
Scott

Ah nuts...

This is what I drug up (ack..shoulda left the door closed here...blah!)...

Looking for more info on the hemizygote definition and this came glaring up...

I'm getting dizzy over the purse vs wallet stuff. Hard to comprehend since I haven't used a purse in at least 10 years. I switched to waist packs , so I don't leave a purse hanging on the public restroom door hook anymore. I had to run back furiously too many times -.

Well DD, I have over time dumped my diaper bag sized purse too. Now I carry a small wee one, sorta like the waist packs too. Don't need great big safety pins and baby wipes (though we do haul around an assortment of mug wipes in the trucks for eating on the go...hee hee...missed the mouth! Eeek!) since my "boy" is over 30 and not living at home...hee hee. I will once again have to lug around the big bag purse...pending how long we can avoid Depends (nfi)...so it depends on the Depends...

I guess I use the analogy of purse and wallets pretty much well with the young kids to get it. Girls and boys are quite into having purses and wallets...becoming adult like persons and such, you know!

I mean it is still way better than trying to remember which dang chromosome letter is for which gender...z, y, x, w...ACK!

And now with what I dug up, I am even heading towards a need to take a big pill to stop the head from aching...gender linked...oh the fun...bring on the fun times!

Scott Drumstick Diva is 67 years old and she'd don't care! Me neither. Actually Jan. 7 she will be 67.5- compulsive truth teller.

Yeh...you go Girl...heh heh heh...only when you are out to pasture can one be a compulsive truth teller. Hard enough remembering things besides making up a lie and having to remember you told one. LMBO

Why hold back the truth of it all...they will like or hate you...so out on the table it goes.

"How do you like me NOW?" Eeek...maybe a bit TOO much information perhaps...LMBO


I jest knew you would relate to the wet tissue blotting...oh the shame of it all!

Never mind withholding cheese...kids grow up and RUN away from home and STAY away till they can fight us overbearing mothers off...then they can come back home for selective visitations at a respectable arm's length distance. See their eyes bug out whenever you go rustling around in a pocket..."Watcha got there Mom?"

We get so outta practise with the exacting tissue application..."Anyone up for a wet willy?"

Tara, in regard to sex-linked genetics. I'm wondering... I am creating a bantam line in my Andalusians. I was told that the bantam gene is sex-linked to the male. So, this year I'm wondering if every single offspring of that bantam male will carry the bantam gene? I wonder because this year I have lots of offspring from a bantam male with a variety of hens and in some cases, two brothers for instance, are vastly different in size and it is discombobbilatin' me! Got any answers?

Yes, Sigrid's book on Extremes goes into pages of definitions on some of the gender linked dwarfism...how some are almost half sized, others less so (5%, 9%, 14%, 26%, 43% smaller). Pages 179 to 186 in the Chapter entitled The Body are what you need to acquire this information from.


In my bantam Chantecler project, I chose to cross bantam sires on large fowl dams. I got larger males (but smaller than the original large fowl males) that carry dwarfism and smallish females that are dwarfish. As said, my project boy sons were smaller than my large fowl males so I suspect there is some autosomal dwarfism from the bantam sires at play. My girl daughters were smaller than my large fowl females...BUT I also got a few first generation males that were just as tiny as my original bantam boys that where used as sires. Following along the laws of gender linked dwarfism...this should not have been possible so I know there is a non-gender linked dwarfism(s) in the mix now. We can SEE it.

Not suppose to be possible and yet, here he is in the flesh; his hackle feathers a blowing in the wind.

Surfer Dude is an F1; cuckoo partridge with single dose of rec white, maybe autosomal red too...​

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Confusing...perhaps but there ARE dwarfism genetics that are NOT gender linked (adw for autosomal dwarfing makes offspring 30% smaller)...so you can feel free to box the ears of whomever told you "the bantam gene is sex-linked to the male" because that is not always what happens in the breeding pens or with research studies to say otherwise. Thyroid issues make smaller birds but not a wanted trait (td for thyrogenous dwarfism) in a strain--birds eat but never feel full with huge bulging crops and gimped in other ways...and even creeper which is lethal in a double dose may assist in making birds more mini. Not things we want...we want the birds bantam but smaller and just as productive as their bigger counterparts.

There are even oldtimer waterfowl books out there that talk about withholding feed to make birds more petite...criminal really...we are a free pour facility here and like Garfield's owner's mother...it is EAT EAT EAT your fill thank you very much! I am sure you are the same way too Lacy...hee hee...but need to mention this practise since we are talking about making bantam birds...

Remember I whined that I expected hybrid vigour from my crosses of my bantam Call ducks, grey x white ducks. Yeh...got some of the smallest (make a fist!) sized Calls I have bred up from those variety crosses...AGH! Was happy because I was all braced for a few years of BIG FAT ducks! When we cross bantams with large fowl (standard sized birds), we often think because they are unrelated (for the most part the two different sizes are unrelated), we will get hybrid vigour which makes bigger & fatter birds. Not always the case. It was obvious to me that when I crossed my Whites to my Greys...I doubled up on TWO dwarfism genes and made mini MINI birds. LOL


The rule of thumb for a bird sire is that he can contribute any one of his two Z chromosomes to his offspring. He NEVER makes the bird babes a girl...he gives them all his boyish charm from either one of his two Z chromosomes...

Since the dam has one Z male chromosome and one W female chromosome (which carries NO gender linked information--basically only use is to make the baby bird a GIRL), she gives her offspring either her Z chromosome (that HAS information) and makes that bird a son OR she gives her offspring her W chromosome (that has NO information) and makes the bird a daughter. The hemizygous daughters will express only what their fathers give them in gender linked alleles since to be a female, their mother had to give them the blank no information W chromosome which contains no gender linked information like the Z chromosome does. The father and mother can STILL pass on NON-gender linked dwarfism to the kids. Autosomal dwarfism exsists!


Because some dwarfism is gender linked...a large male could be hiding his single dose of dwarfism on his other Z chromosome. He looks large but is able to produce small offspring that get his Z chromosome with the attached dwarfism allele(s).

It gets complicated when the male has gender linked traits that act dominant or recessive in the males. Gender linked traits can never be hidden in the female bird...she expresses the dominant version of the allele or the recessive version of the allele. She shows what she's got because she has ONE dose only and no other conflicting one period!

The male can be dominant, recessive, or incompletely dominant in regards to gender linked traits.

Male is S/S or S/s"+" or s"+"/s"+"

Female is S/- or s"+"/-


Visually then a male that is S/S looks Silver...pure. Male that is s"+"/s"+" is gold. Male that is S/s"+" is impure so is half expressing gold and half expressing Silver. He is both gold and Silver but neither one completely.

Visually the female is S/- Silver and s"+"/- gold. She hides nothing and reveals the only thing she has to reveal that is on her one Z male chromosome.


Female chickens are great for weeding out say green legs in a breed/variety where you want yellow shanks. Every female that is old enough to lay eggs (leg colour is not stable and best to wait at least six weeks for the yellow from the egg yolk to work itself outta the body to know the real genetic colour the legs should be) that has YELLOW legs is safe to breed from. On the other hand, any male with yellow legs could be hiding genetics to make green legs. The only way to prove a yellow legged male is pure for yellow legs is to breed him to yellow legged hens and never have the offspring thrown express green legs. All he needs to do is sire one offspring with a true genetic yellow legged female and if the progeny matures into an adult chicken with green legs, then you know he hides a gender linked allele for green legs under his dominant yellow leg allele.


So the crossing of a mini Dad with a large Mom...if indeed the dwarfism IS only gender linked..gives one = large sons that hide one dose of dwarfism (from Dad's Z chromosome) and express one large fowl dose which is dominant (from Mom's Z chromosome), and small daughters that are just dwarfs (one gender linked allele for mini/dwarf on the Z chromosome from Dad, Mom's W chromosome has no info past making them girls).

Large Dad (pure in Standard size and not one hiding a single dose of dwarfism on one of his two Z chromosomes) with mini Mom will give you = sons that are large but hide one dose of dwarfism and NO daughters that are dwarf...so large daughters (Mom gave them her W chromosome to make the girls but had no info past that) and the Dad was large and pure for it, so his Z chromosomes are both for large fowl birds, so he can only give Z chromosomes for large size. Best you get from this cross is impure big boys that hide one dose for gender linked dwarfism from their mother's male Z chromosome...the girls are big from the Dad's male Z chromosome for large in combination with the Mom's female W chromosome (which has no gender linked info on it--jest makes them girls!). These daughters have no genetic potential to make dwarfs from gender linked dwarfism because the only gender linked info was received from the large Dad who was pure for that on both his Z chromosomes.

Now if the large Dad hid one dose of NOT gender linked dwarfism on one of his male Z chromosomes...he could make bantams too...He is like the F1 son from the mini Dad and large Mom in that he l00ks big but hides small potential for his offspring. This is why if you did the cross of a bantam male on a large female, the large F1 sons may be used knowing they hide one allele for dwarfism IF it is one of the forms of gender linked dwarfism.

Nothing in breeding is ever cut and dry and/or guaranteed...even if we have genetics to help us understand the process a little tiny bit better.

I think I have explained this correctly...may have to edit (yup; edited because I missed the "/" and "-" above for the s-series female plus thought I would repeat some more to keep this straight forward and clarified as best I am able) this if I messed it up but that's all got for right now. I am not sure I will ever not struggle with gender linked but the more I try, the better I can be at it.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[bamadude]

Its like 70 degrees f here....i could use a bag of charcoal tho.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Thank you Tara. That pretty much sunk in (amazingly, as I've only just finished my first cup of coffee for the day) but I will keep it and read it over and over. Maybe I can come to more of an understanding. If I look at it while I look at my birds, I might do even better... or worse, depending on all sorts of variables.

 

[lularat]

Merry Christmas to Everyone!

 

[drumstick diva]

Happy Holidays to one and all

 

[Northie]

Catching up after holidays, Merry Christmas everyone

 

[CanuckBock]

That would be quite the catapult if you where to match the scale of that slingshot... Lol could hit my house with it...

Dunno ...

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That sorta bump that runs between us (dem Rocky boulders thar) might be a bit of a deterrent to us lobbing much over the pass to each other...hee hee...

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But it is always fun stuff to dream...big big BIG silliness!

Yes, Tara I am waiting to see the doggies in their finest holiday creations.

Yes, yes my Dear...

"We get to PLAY!!"​

Whilst the bird was roasting in the oven,

Christmas dinner....​

Had me Boy and I with them Foamers and Fixies go and try out the new toys the Boy brought...the new dog dog toys.

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Out to the Ram Pasture, we all did tootle...​

Foamy simply cannot contain herself and is leaping for JOY!​

TOSS IT!​

Did we say we LUV doing dis?​

Framed in tinsel​

The demise of the necker glitter; tinsely tinsel garland strewing...spewing...​

Toting a heavy load...​

"There, there Cutey," says my son.​

Time to go back to the house and check on the food...

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Made up a batch of my smelly the house up mixture of tea, cinnamon stick, some cloves, cranberry and blueberry juice, honey, lime slices...dried cranberries and such...all to put a festive scent in the air...Dee Dee Dee...tis Christmas DAY, eh!

Its like 70 degrees f here....i could use a bag of charcoal tho.

I am sure we can spare to send you a few bags of char...keep the home fires a burning...hee hee...

Thank you Tara. That pretty much sunk in (amazingly, as I've only just finished my first cup of coffee for the day) but I will keep it and read it over and over. Maybe I can come to more of an understanding. If I look at it while I look at my birds, I might do even better... or worse, depending on all sorts of variables.

I give a hands on Fancier Breeder's take on this topic (how to make Bantam Chantecler chickens from Large Fowl or Standard sized Chanteclers using male bantam Wyandottes x female large fowl/Standard Chanteclers) and how so far it has worked at my place as in what happens IN my breedings...for a more scientific approach (the theory behind the practical...), you may look up on the Net...for maybe the originating research papers...

Recessive gender linked Dwarfism
Punnett and Bailey 1914 (Dw"+" & dw; oldest study done on golden Hamburg x silver Sebright)
Danforth in 1929 (cross of d'Uccle roo x sebright = various sizes from bigger to smaller than P1's in progeny, F1 was larger than either bantam)
Hutt 1959 (dw found in New Hampshires is gender linked and close to s-series and k-series-feather growth)
Custodio and Japp 1973 (dw^B found in golden Sebrights close to feather growth location)
MacDonald Dwarf (dw^M found in broilers, gender linked recessive )

Dominant gender linked Dwarfism
Somes 1978 (Z study begun by Maw in 1935 with Brahma x Sebright)

Recessive gender linked Dwarfism
Godfrey 1953 (rg Plymouth Rock x Java of which Godfrey produce 2,399 offspring / might be same genetics as Z but work continues)

Unknown dwarfing genes
Cole - Cornell University white Leghorn line with K for slow feathering (adw autosomal dwarfing)
Landauer 1929 & Upp and Mayhew 1932 (Hutt named this td or thyrogenous dwarfism is recessive dwarfing - genetic thyroid disorder found in Rhode Island Reds and as of late, some Seramas might be expressing this--never mature and pass on)


All this research is fine and dandy and shows us simply that it is complicated with alot still unknown. I figure the best way is to apply what you learn to the actual real life occurrences and not give up hope when you produce, say a bigger male...to undertake any project where you are trying to instill a certain trait NOT in the strain...if you have to outcross to new lines, you are going to bring in baggage along with what you DO want. You need to cut the crap out (the added baggage) and retain the wanted item which is WAY easier said than done. Many a baby can and does get tossed when you can't quite SEE the vision that is only one generation away.

Produce lots and lots of chicks, have to do lots of selection knowing in the first generation you are NOT going to SEE the results you want if it is a simple recessive not in your original line (hidden recessive can suck)...only in the second generation of inbreeding will the WANTED results show up in the males IF the trait is truly gender linked. The girls will only receive ONE allele from the father (who, if he has the allele you want to give to his daughters) to express, so possible to get F1 females expressing what you wanted from the Dad when the item is gender linked.

Rainbow of colourations and patterns - L-R females 2&3 are Partridge founders / female 6 is for self-White / females 7&8 are self-Buff basers​

Two bigger than I want to finish with males in the center (L-R males 4 & 5) thar BUT (and a big butt it is!), major small male (Surfer Boy) on far left (L-R position 1)...girls are still bigger than I prefer for an end product in a Bantam Chantecler BUT (big big biggest butt!) again, some INbreeding within this line will reduce size, lining up all the genetics to be PURE for bantam will help too. And so it goes...before you know it...ten years has run by and you are well, uh, um...still having FUN with feathers...right? I get plentiful decent quality big eggs from my project females, I get smaller boys each generation that I keep at this project and this year...I can finally SEE THE LIGHT at the END of the TUNNEL. Does that mean success or immanent death...so NOW do I want to know what the light means?

Cockerel in third generation--indeed smaller and closer and closer to a Self-White, right?

Crappy head gear for a cushion comb but I know how to fix that!​

While I am selecting for small size, proper shape (that important breed part where we tend to keep to certain MINIMUM expectations--I have never been tempted yet to keep a single comb...that screams too much work to get a cushion comb and smaller wattles back on the line's heads--my line in the sand I suppose!), AND weeding out the colour varieties I want as in Buff, White and Partridge, I continue to make sure I use only strong stocks that thrive under my conditions. Longevity, disease resistance, temperament, production, vigour, fertility...none of that takes a back seat during the adventure. No coddling! I cannot STAND weak dependents...the weak need to die already and leave room and resources for the strong ones. Sounds cruel until you find yourself making more of the same...and that is a good thing when they are decent and right to begin with. I need to like doing this...not like I am going to fully retire ever past being just the TIRED part.

F4's from this summer in White, Partridge (sorta!) and Buff (sorta!)​

Is it a sane thing to do...who knows, who cares...it entertains me immensely and that should be what keeping critters IS all about anyway. Heaven forbid it is never going to even begin to help pay for itself...so we go on labelling it a hobby and taking our licks on it.


Been going for loser laps with Rick...enjoying the days off for all they are worth!

Trip yesterday was out to Drayton...

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Wiz on by Em-Te Town...

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Not everyone behaves and has a good time on snowy roads--it is risky to be out and about...sigh...sometimes just being out there means troubles...

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But we sure did behave and luckily were able to avoid having any troubles...

My Hero is a great driver and we enjoyed going for the snowy drive.​

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Few days prior, we had clear blue skies...enjoy the differences for what they be...enjoyable in all expressions of an Alberta Winter.

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Gorgeous day, 27th...do my chores, hop in the truck and hit the roads...

Picked up dinner and dropped by the Kid's unexpectedly for him. Heh heh heh..."Hi, it's us...Eat eat eat!"

"You brought dinner...well shucky darn and slop the chickens--I'm in on this!"​

No crime there...we eat, enjoy his pets, watch him take down his Christmas tree...

Glorph showing off his tricks to shake a paw...
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Cookie...​

Kitty Glitter...​

Got meself an addition to the Christmas trash I put out in the Man Porch...

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Forty percent off and suddenly...

Woodstock in a Santa hat lives here during the holidays!​

Wee hee hee...found a match to the tree on the other table to surround the nativity scene...heavenly tacky Christmas display...wee hee hee...what silly fun.

Merry Christmas to Everyone!

Happy Holidays to one and all

Catching up after holidays, Merry Christmas everyone

Ram Pasture with a dusting of new snow yesterday​

Indeed it has been a wonderful Christmas season and looking forward to New Year's too.

Yoke at the front gate yesterday​

Nice dinner of ham with pineapple slices with cherry accents...then to be full up and sleeping before midnight...before the clock/calendar rolls over.

Peering into the Veg Garden...tis resting and asleep in winter​

Calendar rolls over on just another day in pear-a-dice, eh?

Hatching house yesterday​

Looking forward to when the Hatch House gets fired back up...Buster begins working on fuzz butts...

Sheep Dip Inn and Screw Ewe Barn in distance ​

But for now, not overly anxious to say good bye to winter...so beautiful and wonderful!

Nine Oh's home and one of my chore sleds with water and feed buckets in transit
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It is pretty out...

Taj Mahal yesterday
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I am use to the daily winter chores and the buildings are all rigged out for keeping things going...

Full swing a ding dong in winter!

Mandarins and one pair of the Aus Black Swans​

The birds and beasts are conditioned for the winter...as am I!

Ruddy pair, see the frost on the chest of the female? She just had her daily dip and is sitting there happy as a Lark.
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Yeh, it is a wonderful season and so enjoyable.

I hope all are having a good holiday and living life to the fullest...peace, joy, happiness...

Tis a GREAT time of the year!

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[hennible]

Tara Is that highway 16?

 

[CanuckBock]

Tara Is that highway 16?

Hwy 22, the Cowboy Trail.

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December 24th, on our way to my doctor's appointment.

Tara