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Heel low:
So after spewing somewhat the past few posts...some questions for the readers...you paying attention to the free information?? Time to show me why I bother to cast my noggin stuff out thar.
Breeding poultry is a science and a what?
What comb type did some judged at a sanctioned show Chanteclers have?
Would you never succeed at this Fancy if you did not have a mentor?
Are you a lost case and a failure if you do not seek out a "jury of your peers or equals" to judge your breeding birds?
Do you have to exhibit your poultry to be a breeder that follows the words found in the Poultry Standards?
I never earned my opinions for free, cost me big time in time, effort, money...some of my library books took six weeks and many hundreds of dollars to receive. Then after just acquiring them means I had yet more work in store...took time reading, understanding, re-reading and then applying & testing. Don't ever think I quote lines because I have not myself TESTED these words myself to make sure I am satisfied these words are true. I howl when people try, pathetically too...try to discredit the scientific methods used. Issue here is when you use the scientific method, you say what you did and why, you go thru the methods used to show it can be repeated by others and tested to prove what you believe to be the truth is real. Here, this is what I thought, this is how I did it, get on it and repeat and report back the results...did you find it replicatable? Can you repeat the experiment and put what I say happened to the test and know it is real?
You cite the hypothesis...the theory and you then test the science...you replicate the experiment and you validate the outcome is the reality. Far too complicated for many and for them to actually sit and type out text from a book...sure I make spelling errors, transcription errors and end up with tired fingees but here is my source (sometimes original, my imagination run WILD or sometimes, as there is usually nothing NEW under the sun, eh...sometimes proving someone else's observations and conclusions...the more insight the merrier and the more likely us humans will get it right) and after saying what made me start wanting to prove the statement...I will post here what I did to prove that theory...in photos, in graphic colour, for you all to determine if you too think it might be worthy of some validity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method:
Course y'all know that the SCIENCE in the scientific method is gonna ruffle the feathers of those advocates that will say, "do as I say!" and want you to concur without questioning. They believe that in some illustrious way...because they tell you to do something, you should They are not our parents, they are not our kings or queens...they don't pay the feed bills, don the cold weather gear and trudge about taking care of the beasts and birds. They have no right to tell anyone what to do if they too cannot systematically tell you and SHOW you why the advice they are giving works. That be the rux...the monkey wrench in the machine...not every method works in every situation, not for every person or situation. I think the best tool kit contains multiple methods to skin a [email protected] you can try a bunch of them (monkey bananas?) and hope ONE method works and off you go again, having fun and lounging about in bliss.
I roar when you get persons that think by crowning themselves these big wigs in the Fancy...we the lowly persons need to pay homage to them like we are the surfs and they be the royalty. HA...I have seen seven year old children, newbies wet behind the ears in their greenhorness bestow words of wisdom lost to the oldtimers and their set ways and blinders. The one comment a person made about HyBlade...that he was TAN instead of the dog sport terminology RED...was the doG's honest truth...proven by DNA colour testing and ripping apart what we knew to be the truth staring us in the faces. New eyes, old problem. Kennel blindness, comparable at times to COOP blindness.
I'll follow someone, I'll admire and converse with you...but I need to actually see your greatness thanks...not hear about your tales of it...string you along because you can baffle us with your cowcrap.
The Scientific Method means you are always working on it...the science in the poultry Fancy means it is ongoing (never mind that art part also is always you working in a project tweaking this and that!)...you never EVER stop your experiments & reworks, your observations, your testing your theories and comparing your outcomes. I recall being told that I was going to "scare the newbies" by telling it like it is.
Aim for zero predation, happy housing facilities, a good start from a person that has or acquired years invested in a good strain(s),
Yes, it costs likely the same amount in money to build facilities to contain a flock of chickens as it costs to have a show dog that is genetically tested and conformationally titled. Sure the components are not one dog, but many chickens...but add it up with hardware cloth, metal roofing, four compartments, likely one pen away for quarantine, cost of bedding and storage (first year the hay tarp gets rodent holes in it and you lose product to moisture dripping down the bales...always the hole is between squares, murphy's law, and ruins multiple bales, but I digress...), you end up buying feed in volumes to try and save money and the hassle of popping round the feed store for the week or month's supply (unnecessarily exposing yourself, vehicle and even the bags to communicatable diseases to haul home to infect your flock unwittenly!)...people call it chicken math in the want to have more...the fun of breeding better examples, the challenges you want to try beating...the hobby looks innocent and cheap. Then you get into it and realize, you coulda had a dog kennel for the same efforts...LMBO
Here's some logic & science I expect many of you will enjoy. Blue dog Emmy...she is labelled a blue in the Australian Cattle Dog (correctly Blue, Black & Tan)...but she is not blue in the sense of the background here on BYC. She is a mixture of black & white hairs that give the illusion of being blue. IN real essence for us artsy fartsy types...blue is GREY...because when you take that paint of white and black and mix it on your pallet...you made grey...not blue. The way light works and the way our human eyes and brain interpret this, there are no blue feathers. All the feathers are GREY but under the right light conditions appear blue. NO BLUE FEATHERS...'kay?
So you would figure, good enough...it ends there...nope...now the science of that...we all should know by now, black pigment is eumelanin and no pigment is white.
What finer science then does for you...what so many others that spew on colour genetics are doing...drives me nuts too...is they do not understand the science of the colour genetic pallet. Yes, lot like mixing paints...the kids I teach we finger paint...we get messy and have some fun...and by doing and learning and getting dirty...they remember it.
So the beginnings in understanding blue pigments in bird feathers is to understand the BASICS of how the pigment black and no pigment white is made. Feathers are protein, just like our finger nails. Happy birds express good feathers...all the right conditions in place and the correct attitude and your bird glows with healfulness...gold star for you who care so well for your property!
To understand a topic, you need to start at the beginning and build upon that solid foundation...that knowledge...sometimes rather boring and tedious...but hey, you crawl, you walk before you run or you run head long into that barn, eh. Silly for being in such a rush to the finish line...it is not the end result you enjoy but the ongoing journey...
Black pigment is speedier than red pigments...black pigments are ROD shaped when influenced by blue dilution...the rod shape means the black pigment has a harder time to enter the feather than it usual ROUND black pigment shape. Here is how blue dilution (one dose or two) limits the expression or dilutes otherwise black feathered birds. Red pigments are spherical or oval shaped, slower to be expressed and blue dilution does not affect red pigments (only ever slight lightening of red pigments happen in birds with blue dilution, usually for other reasons than its presence) because the shape is different in red pigments and the keratin has troubles entering the feather.
We say that blue dilution (different location than black so not alleles at the same location) is epistatic or dominant (hypostatic is recessive) to extended black because blue dilution makes the black pigment change in shape and amount expressed...the shape of the melanosomes (granules or sacks that contain melanin) is altered and because the shape is different...they have a more difficult time entering the keratin (fibrous structural protein) of the feather.
So you know the basics...blue dilution changes the shape in black pigment which prevents (dilutes) the full expression of the colour. A physical barrier to the smooth (defined by shape) transport of pigment from being seen or expressed.
You would have a black pigmented feather fully black and in all its glory if blue dilution did not pounce on the black shaped granules, change the shape to make the transport harder. That is the nuts and bolts of it and now that you know that...you are even more dangerous that you were five minutes past.
Why teach...because I don't want you bothering me...do it fur yerself, eh!
You won't be bamboozled by these half educated colour genetic goons. My wants...you answer yer own questions--stand on your own two feet and do it yerself...leave me alone as I am busy getting into my own predicaments too (LOL)...
You can give a man a fish and he won't starve that day or you can teach a man to fish and know he can take care of himself for his lifetime! Not my original quote but so true.
Black bird...NO blue dilution in this one, eh
NOTE the beetle green sheen on the female's head...she does not have a purple sheen which would tell you...
That she has RED pigments ... the GREEN sheen shouts BLACK pigments...YIPEE
You want a black base with as little red as possible...NO RED! er you see red...har har
So when someone says, a blue bird is a black bird dilute to blue...how would you NOW approach that statement? By giving up the real finer details, you lose the understanding...you stay DUMB in my opinion...you cannot progress from walking or crawling and are doomed to stay there instead of soaring...not just running but leaping and flapping. You free yourself from the dull and ignorant. Correct the statement to say, "a blue bird is a black bird that has some of the black pigment diluted to leave you with a grey bird in the black and white pigments expressed." A grey bird would make better sense in that it is a mixture of black & white and therefore is grey that looks blue in the correct light.
BOO bird...head is often darker simply more black pigment thar,
feathers are physically different shape...texture, never forget the structure plays out how the pigments are seen too!
sneak a peak back at the black above...her head seems DARK than her bod too...
Birds never lie, they reveal their past, history/ancestors read like a book, page by page
SEE the difference...you are NOW even more arm and dangerous because you understand LOGICALLY and methodically what blue dilution is doing...changing the shape of the black pigment cells to make it more difficult to enter the feather as pigment to be expressed and seen there. Be like clogging up a sieve that use to allow water to flow unimpeded from it.
So did I SCARE THE NEWBIES all away with the proper explanation? Did I edumacated you all better so now you are a force to contend with...you don't need me...you are fully able to be fledged and make like the rest of the adultish birds and flock off on your owns?
Cripers, the point to knowledge is to set you free so you can answer question all by yourself, not need persons like me to dissect and answer your ever ponder.
Here's yer test...what is there some darker feathers on this bird's face...
This female is splash...so two doses of blue dilution...but still blue dilution is doing what to her BLACK pigment?
Another GREAT bonus in the above click of one of my birds...on the feathers above her tail...see that leaky RED pigment. This shows you that to make A GREAT splash bird...you truly do want to start with a perfectly BLACK bird to dilute the pigments by. You want no red in the bird because...AHA...see what happens, the red peaky feathers above on her tail are gonna show up...the birds never LIE...they tell you, this bird now reveals the less than perfect black bird she was before the addition of two blue dilutions...right?
So we got a black, a blue, a splash and another blue
Can you SEE the black in the feathers leaking in the wing of one of these blues? Can yah?
The first blue well sure is easy to SEE she has less black pigment (richness of eumelanin) than the other blue on the end. She has expressed a less rich blue colour. Blue as in grey, right? You can see in black birds, some are a richer black...well the same screams in the blues and the splash too...how much black in the base is being altered?
Want proof that blue is not blue but grey...lookit your blue birds in the shade...you got no blue birds, then look at real wild blue birds...Jays and such...a Blue Jay in the shade is grey (or grAy if you are in the States, eh).
OK you Whipper snapper grasshoppers...wanna get tested...here you go...visuals (as always) to set the stage,
What the double Hockey sticks is this...then?
We in the Fancy in NA call this Blue Fawn...stupid name I know but it is what it is...
Hobby names (another good lesson!) more often than not do not tell the
colour genetics that make the colour variety...AGH!
So for those (and by golly we've seen this variety on the steady decline since recognition!) not in the know...when you breed a Grey Call (wild pattern Mallard colour) to a Blue Call you get a Blue Fawn Call...the black in the grey call becomes blue and voila...Blue Fawn. But you figure you see persons doing that...naugh...they breed blue fawn to blue fawn and because blue dilution never breeds true...
Pastel hen...sorry about her head feathering...breeding season and well, you waterfowl owners know...
Statistically you get from a blue fawn to blue fawn = one grey, two blue fawn and one pastel (ah ha...you see how much the blue dilution dilutes the black...a splash grey could be another more correct name for a Pastel Call...hee hee).
Blue fawn on left and grey call on right
To avoid a washed out too light background blue fawn, you have to redo the cross that made them in the first place...the blue and the grey...hilarious really until you see how not knowing the genetic makings and how & where the colour varieties came from. Ignorance is bliss I guess...as we watch the quality of the varieties slip slide and degrade over time and ignorance. Can't keep the colour correct if you don't know the way it is made.
Beautiful blue fawn...because her breeder KNOWS her roots...
the birds never lie!
That be that...fur what it's worth...
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
So after spewing somewhat the past few posts...some questions for the readers...you paying attention to the free information?? Time to show me why I bother to cast my noggin stuff out thar.
Breeding poultry is a science and a what?
What comb type did some judged at a sanctioned show Chanteclers have?
Would you never succeed at this Fancy if you did not have a mentor?
Are you a lost case and a failure if you do not seek out a "jury of your peers or equals" to judge your breeding birds?
Do you have to exhibit your poultry to be a breeder that follows the words found in the Poultry Standards?
I never earned my opinions for free, cost me big time in time, effort, money...some of my library books took six weeks and many hundreds of dollars to receive. Then after just acquiring them means I had yet more work in store...took time reading, understanding, re-reading and then applying & testing. Don't ever think I quote lines because I have not myself TESTED these words myself to make sure I am satisfied these words are true. I howl when people try, pathetically too...try to discredit the scientific methods used. Issue here is when you use the scientific method, you say what you did and why, you go thru the methods used to show it can be repeated by others and tested to prove what you believe to be the truth is real. Here, this is what I thought, this is how I did it, get on it and repeat and report back the results...did you find it replicatable? Can you repeat the experiment and put what I say happened to the test and know it is real?
You cite the hypothesis...the theory and you then test the science...you replicate the experiment and you validate the outcome is the reality. Far too complicated for many and for them to actually sit and type out text from a book...sure I make spelling errors, transcription errors and end up with tired fingees but here is my source (sometimes original, my imagination run WILD or sometimes, as there is usually nothing NEW under the sun, eh...sometimes proving someone else's observations and conclusions...the more insight the merrier and the more likely us humans will get it right) and after saying what made me start wanting to prove the statement...I will post here what I did to prove that theory...in photos, in graphic colour, for you all to determine if you too think it might be worthy of some validity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method:
Course y'all know that the SCIENCE in the scientific method is gonna ruffle the feathers of those advocates that will say, "do as I say!" and want you to concur without questioning. They believe that in some illustrious way...because they tell you to do something, you should They are not our parents, they are not our kings or queens...they don't pay the feed bills, don the cold weather gear and trudge about taking care of the beasts and birds. They have no right to tell anyone what to do if they too cannot systematically tell you and SHOW you why the advice they are giving works. That be the rux...the monkey wrench in the machine...not every method works in every situation, not for every person or situation. I think the best tool kit contains multiple methods to skin a [email protected] you can try a bunch of them (monkey bananas?) and hope ONE method works and off you go again, having fun and lounging about in bliss.
I roar when you get persons that think by crowning themselves these big wigs in the Fancy...we the lowly persons need to pay homage to them like we are the surfs and they be the royalty. HA...I have seen seven year old children, newbies wet behind the ears in their greenhorness bestow words of wisdom lost to the oldtimers and their set ways and blinders. The one comment a person made about HyBlade...that he was TAN instead of the dog sport terminology RED...was the doG's honest truth...proven by DNA colour testing and ripping apart what we knew to be the truth staring us in the faces. New eyes, old problem. Kennel blindness, comparable at times to COOP blindness.
I'll follow someone, I'll admire and converse with you...but I need to actually see your greatness thanks...not hear about your tales of it...string you along because you can baffle us with your cowcrap.
The Scientific Method means you are always working on it...the science in the poultry Fancy means it is ongoing (never mind that art part also is always you working in a project tweaking this and that!)...you never EVER stop your experiments & reworks, your observations, your testing your theories and comparing your outcomes. I recall being told that I was going to "scare the newbies" by telling it like it is.
Aim for zero predation, happy housing facilities, a good start from a person that has or acquired years invested in a good strain(s),
Yes, it costs likely the same amount in money to build facilities to contain a flock of chickens as it costs to have a show dog that is genetically tested and conformationally titled. Sure the components are not one dog, but many chickens...but add it up with hardware cloth, metal roofing, four compartments, likely one pen away for quarantine, cost of bedding and storage (first year the hay tarp gets rodent holes in it and you lose product to moisture dripping down the bales...always the hole is between squares, murphy's law, and ruins multiple bales, but I digress...), you end up buying feed in volumes to try and save money and the hassle of popping round the feed store for the week or month's supply (unnecessarily exposing yourself, vehicle and even the bags to communicatable diseases to haul home to infect your flock unwittenly!)...people call it chicken math in the want to have more...the fun of breeding better examples, the challenges you want to try beating...the hobby looks innocent and cheap. Then you get into it and realize, you coulda had a dog kennel for the same efforts...LMBO
Here's some logic & science I expect many of you will enjoy. Blue dog Emmy...she is labelled a blue in the Australian Cattle Dog (correctly Blue, Black & Tan)...but she is not blue in the sense of the background here on BYC. She is a mixture of black & white hairs that give the illusion of being blue. IN real essence for us artsy fartsy types...blue is GREY...because when you take that paint of white and black and mix it on your pallet...you made grey...not blue. The way light works and the way our human eyes and brain interpret this, there are no blue feathers. All the feathers are GREY but under the right light conditions appear blue. NO BLUE FEATHERS...'kay?
So you would figure, good enough...it ends there...nope...now the science of that...we all should know by now, black pigment is eumelanin and no pigment is white.
What finer science then does for you...what so many others that spew on colour genetics are doing...drives me nuts too...is they do not understand the science of the colour genetic pallet. Yes, lot like mixing paints...the kids I teach we finger paint...we get messy and have some fun...and by doing and learning and getting dirty...they remember it.
So the beginnings in understanding blue pigments in bird feathers is to understand the BASICS of how the pigment black and no pigment white is made. Feathers are protein, just like our finger nails. Happy birds express good feathers...all the right conditions in place and the correct attitude and your bird glows with healfulness...gold star for you who care so well for your property!
To understand a topic, you need to start at the beginning and build upon that solid foundation...that knowledge...sometimes rather boring and tedious...but hey, you crawl, you walk before you run or you run head long into that barn, eh. Silly for being in such a rush to the finish line...it is not the end result you enjoy but the ongoing journey...
Black pigment is speedier than red pigments...black pigments are ROD shaped when influenced by blue dilution...the rod shape means the black pigment has a harder time to enter the feather than it usual ROUND black pigment shape. Here is how blue dilution (one dose or two) limits the expression or dilutes otherwise black feathered birds. Red pigments are spherical or oval shaped, slower to be expressed and blue dilution does not affect red pigments (only ever slight lightening of red pigments happen in birds with blue dilution, usually for other reasons than its presence) because the shape is different in red pigments and the keratin has troubles entering the feather.
We say that blue dilution (different location than black so not alleles at the same location) is epistatic or dominant (hypostatic is recessive) to extended black because blue dilution makes the black pigment change in shape and amount expressed...the shape of the melanosomes (granules or sacks that contain melanin) is altered and because the shape is different...they have a more difficult time entering the keratin (fibrous structural protein) of the feather.
So you know the basics...blue dilution changes the shape in black pigment which prevents (dilutes) the full expression of the colour. A physical barrier to the smooth (defined by shape) transport of pigment from being seen or expressed.
You would have a black pigmented feather fully black and in all its glory if blue dilution did not pounce on the black shaped granules, change the shape to make the transport harder. That is the nuts and bolts of it and now that you know that...you are even more dangerous that you were five minutes past.
Why teach...because I don't want you bothering me...do it fur yerself, eh!
You won't be bamboozled by these half educated colour genetic goons. My wants...you answer yer own questions--stand on your own two feet and do it yerself...leave me alone as I am busy getting into my own predicaments too (LOL)...
You can give a man a fish and he won't starve that day or you can teach a man to fish and know he can take care of himself for his lifetime! Not my original quote but so true.
Black bird...NO blue dilution in this one, eh
NOTE the beetle green sheen on the female's head...she does not have a purple sheen which would tell you...
That she has RED pigments ... the GREEN sheen shouts BLACK pigments...YIPEE
You want a black base with as little red as possible...NO RED! er you see red...har har
So when someone says, a blue bird is a black bird dilute to blue...how would you NOW approach that statement? By giving up the real finer details, you lose the understanding...you stay DUMB in my opinion...you cannot progress from walking or crawling and are doomed to stay there instead of soaring...not just running but leaping and flapping. You free yourself from the dull and ignorant. Correct the statement to say, "a blue bird is a black bird that has some of the black pigment diluted to leave you with a grey bird in the black and white pigments expressed." A grey bird would make better sense in that it is a mixture of black & white and therefore is grey that looks blue in the correct light.
Blue = black & white...so remove some black in an otherwise black bird and you are left with some white and black...GREY or blue.
BOO bird...head is often darker simply more black pigment thar,
feathers are physically different shape...texture, never forget the structure plays out how the pigments are seen too!
sneak a peak back at the black above...her head seems DARK than her bod too...
Birds never lie, they reveal their past, history/ancestors read like a book, page by page
SEE the difference...you are NOW even more arm and dangerous because you understand LOGICALLY and methodically what blue dilution is doing...changing the shape of the black pigment cells to make it more difficult to enter the feather as pigment to be expressed and seen there. Be like clogging up a sieve that use to allow water to flow unimpeded from it.
So did I SCARE THE NEWBIES all away with the proper explanation? Did I edumacated you all better so now you are a force to contend with...you don't need me...you are fully able to be fledged and make like the rest of the adultish birds and flock off on your owns?
Cripers, the point to knowledge is to set you free so you can answer question all by yourself, not need persons like me to dissect and answer your ever ponder.
Here's yer test...what is there some darker feathers on this bird's face...
This female is splash...so two doses of blue dilution...but still blue dilution is doing what to her BLACK pigment?
Another GREAT bonus in the above click of one of my birds...on the feathers above her tail...see that leaky RED pigment. This shows you that to make A GREAT splash bird...you truly do want to start with a perfectly BLACK bird to dilute the pigments by. You want no red in the bird because...AHA...see what happens, the red peaky feathers above on her tail are gonna show up...the birds never LIE...they tell you, this bird now reveals the less than perfect black bird she was before the addition of two blue dilutions...right?
So we got a black, a blue, a splash and another blue
Can you SEE the black in the feathers leaking in the wing of one of these blues? Can yah?
The first blue well sure is easy to SEE she has less black pigment (richness of eumelanin) than the other blue on the end. She has expressed a less rich blue colour. Blue as in grey, right? You can see in black birds, some are a richer black...well the same screams in the blues and the splash too...how much black in the base is being altered?
Want proof that blue is not blue but grey...lookit your blue birds in the shade...you got no blue birds, then look at real wild blue birds...Jays and such...a Blue Jay in the shade is grey (or grAy if you are in the States, eh).
OK you Whipper snapper grasshoppers...wanna get tested...here you go...visuals (as always) to set the stage,
What the double Hockey sticks is this...then?
We in the Fancy in NA call this Blue Fawn...stupid name I know but it is what it is...
Hobby names (another good lesson!) more often than not do not tell the
colour genetics that make the colour variety...AGH!
So for those (and by golly we've seen this variety on the steady decline since recognition!) not in the know...when you breed a Grey Call (wild pattern Mallard colour) to a Blue Call you get a Blue Fawn Call...the black in the grey call becomes blue and voila...Blue Fawn. But you figure you see persons doing that...naugh...they breed blue fawn to blue fawn and because blue dilution never breeds true...
Pastel hen...sorry about her head feathering...breeding season and well, you waterfowl owners know...
Statistically you get from a blue fawn to blue fawn = one grey, two blue fawn and one pastel (ah ha...you see how much the blue dilution dilutes the black...a splash grey could be another more correct name for a Pastel Call...hee hee).
Blue fawn on left and grey call on right
To avoid a washed out too light background blue fawn, you have to redo the cross that made them in the first place...the blue and the grey...hilarious really until you see how not knowing the genetic makings and how & where the colour varieties came from. Ignorance is bliss I guess...as we watch the quality of the varieties slip slide and degrade over time and ignorance. Can't keep the colour correct if you don't know the way it is made.
Beautiful blue fawn...because her breeder KNOWS her roots...
the birds never lie!
That be that...fur what it's worth...
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
