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Jest Another Day in Pear-A-Dice - Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm in Alberta
- Thread starter CanuckBock
- Start date
Seeing all that delicious food, to keep Rick from feeling weak, reminds me that I too am feeling a little weak. When is supper?
Shalom Tara
If the Chocolate/black gene is related to the Z chromosome and if the black is dominant over the chocolate ( if I understand correctly it is a mutation of the black gene, I am not familiar with Duck genetics
) then the male will be Black and the female chocolate!
If the Chocolate/black gene is related to the Z chromosome and if the black is dominant over the chocolate ( if I understand correctly it is a mutation of the black gene, I am not familiar with Duck genetics
) then the male will be Black and the female chocolate!- Thread starter
- #2,274
Heel low:
Quote:
Yes, do...hurry up and catch up...hee hee!
Quote:
Chicken, roo, etc...
Quote:
Supper, I am not usually online in the evenings...or at least at the desk top checking the inbox.
Supper...we had this last night...
Roast beef, mushroom gravy, baked potatoes and asparagus steamed.
Quote:
Here is how I would explain it.
David Holderread explains duck colours well and we will refer to his "spread black" when addressing black and the diluted black versions of the domesticated Anas platyrhynchos (Mallard or wild type). In order to have black, blue or chocolate coloured ducks, you need to have a black base over the wild or grey colour pattern.
Chocolate (gender linked mutation like buff is & both are the rarest of colour mutations in ducks of Mallard descent) is a diluter...like blue, it has to be diluting something to be chocolate...so a duck must first be BLACK so the dilute (such as blue or chocolate or buff) may dilute something.
Holderread explains that Extended Black (E which is incompletely dominant) "extends black throughout each colored feather."
So in essence, I would not say, "black is dominant over the chocolate" but more you need a black duck first so the other diltures have something to dilute. No blue, no chocolate alleles, you would have just a BLACK duck. I realize you do not know waterfowl colour genetics and this is perfectly fine.
Blue dilution visual...
Left to right - Black Call duck, Blue, Splash, Blue
I tell persons, to think of colour genetics like painting...we need to mix paints, mutations, colours, genetics together to get certain colours and colour patterns.
Jun 15 2015
To make blue, you need black and white to get the GREY colour we label as blue in bird feathers.
Blue call hen
The cow dawgs too,
Sep 12 2016
Emmy is a black and white haired dog we humans have labelled as a BLUE variety in the Australian Cattle Dog breed (correctly labelled as a Blue, Black & Tan). In the shade, even a bluebird (Sialia currucoides) looks grey.
Chocolate Call hen
So, to make a chocolate duck...you take cocoa...oh sorry...wrong chocolate...not cooking here and now.
LOVE...love black ducks...then you can build other colours on this base!!!
To make a chocolate coloured duck, you need a black duck first (bibs are irrelevant to your recipe...bibs or self coloured), then you add the mutation brown dilution which is a gender linked recessive defined by Holderread as "dilutes black pigment to dark brown." There is another "brown" or chocolate mutation in waterfowl that is also recessive and gender linked, buff dilution but this one dilutes the black to a medium brown. I do not have buff coloured ducks here.
When dealing with gender linked in ducks (poultry in general, so birds) the female is the one that determines gender (z and w). Unlike mammals, where the male determines gender (x and y).
Therefore, we start out with a black duck, if male, and since chocolate is recessive and gender linked...the male duck or drake must be pure or homozygous for chocolate to have chocolate plumage show visually and not be hidden.
Chocolate Male duck - d"d" / d"d"
Now for a female duck to be chocolate feathered, she will only have ONE allele for chocolate. She cannot have TWO alleles for chocolate like the male duck has because she is a female and female ducks may only possess ONE Z chromosome and only the Z chromosome is long enough to have any useful colour genetic information on it. To be a girl, a female is Z / y and the "y" chromosome is short and does not carry any colour genetic information that we yet know of.
Chocolate Female duck - d"d" / -
(nothing there...the dash or "-" means her y chromosome has nothing on it for colour genetics)
A female bird can only get gender linked information from her father. Her mother decides her gender by giving her the y chromosome BUT on the y chromosome that makes her a girl, there is no colour genetic information passed on by her mother. Again, only her father can give her genetic information on his Z chromosome (it being longer than the girly y chromosome and having STUFF on it to give to his daughter).
This therefore means...
When a Chocolate drake is bred to a Black hen, the resulting offspring's genders may be determined by the colours of the ducklings produced.
To review...
The father duck is Chocolate
The mother duck is Black...
Dad duck gives all his children one single dose of the gender linked recessive mutation for chocolate BUT his sons will not show the hidden recessive chocolate when produced from a black Mother because she has given her sons her Z chromosome which is NOT for chocolate or she herself would have been a Chocolate female duck.
Dad duck gives his daughter one dose for chocolate and when Mother duck gives her daughters her Z chromosome (remember, her Z chromosome is D"+" or wild time and NOT for chocolate), it is Dad's one gene for chocolate that makes his daughters chocolate feathered.
Basically, Chocolate drake bred to Black duck means daughters get chocolate from the Dad so are Chocolate and the sons will be Black but carry the hidden Chocolate gene or allele their father gave them. Keeping in mind, that male ducks must have TWO doses of a gender recessive allele to express it, female ducks have only ONE dose of gender recessive allele to be Chocolate.
If these were the day olds produced from the chocolate drake and black hen;
the black duckling is male, and the chocolates would be females
Now I hope some others understand the inheritance of gender linked recessive chocolate in ducks????
Swimming yesterday, just got to lap 24 when an older fellow took a dive...not into the pool but hit the floor. Meant all us lappers had to leave so the ambulance could come and retrieve him.
Rick got the bricks around the fish pond removed, tub out and begins today working on installing it back in.
Pearl has laid her sixth egg.
Mystery species that we have never gotten eggs from, has laid a second egg...
Any guessers yet as to what type of bird laid this egg.
Apr 28 2017
Woke up to snow but since the ground is still frozen, not unexpected.
Apr 27 2017
Weekend fast approaches and dog food is on sale...so that means, need to go to town and buy five or so bags.
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Yes, do...hurry up and catch up...hee hee!
Quote:
Chicken, roo, etc...
Quote:
Supper, I am not usually online in the evenings...or at least at the desk top checking the inbox.
Supper...we had this last night...
Roast beef, mushroom gravy, baked potatoes and asparagus steamed.
Quote:
Here is how I would explain it.
David Holderread explains duck colours well and we will refer to his "spread black" when addressing black and the diluted black versions of the domesticated Anas platyrhynchos (Mallard or wild type). In order to have black, blue or chocolate coloured ducks, you need to have a black base over the wild or grey colour pattern.
Chocolate (gender linked mutation like buff is & both are the rarest of colour mutations in ducks of Mallard descent) is a diluter...like blue, it has to be diluting something to be chocolate...so a duck must first be BLACK so the dilute (such as blue or chocolate or buff) may dilute something.
Holderread explains that Extended Black (E which is incompletely dominant) "extends black throughout each colored feather."
So in essence, I would not say, "black is dominant over the chocolate" but more you need a black duck first so the other diltures have something to dilute. No blue, no chocolate alleles, you would have just a BLACK duck. I realize you do not know waterfowl colour genetics and this is perfectly fine.
Blue dilution visual...
Left to right - Black Call duck, Blue, Splash, Blue
I tell persons, to think of colour genetics like painting...we need to mix paints, mutations, colours, genetics together to get certain colours and colour patterns.
Jun 15 2015
To make blue, you need black and white to get the GREY colour we label as blue in bird feathers.
Blue call hen
The cow dawgs too,
Sep 12 2016
Emmy is a black and white haired dog we humans have labelled as a BLUE variety in the Australian Cattle Dog breed (correctly labelled as a Blue, Black & Tan). In the shade, even a bluebird (Sialia currucoides) looks grey.
Chocolate Call hen
So, to make a chocolate duck...you take cocoa...oh sorry...wrong chocolate...not cooking here and now.
LOVE...love black ducks...then you can build other colours on this base!!!
To make a chocolate coloured duck, you need a black duck first (bibs are irrelevant to your recipe...bibs or self coloured), then you add the mutation brown dilution which is a gender linked recessive defined by Holderread as "dilutes black pigment to dark brown." There is another "brown" or chocolate mutation in waterfowl that is also recessive and gender linked, buff dilution but this one dilutes the black to a medium brown. I do not have buff coloured ducks here.
When dealing with gender linked in ducks (poultry in general, so birds) the female is the one that determines gender (z and w). Unlike mammals, where the male determines gender (x and y).
Therefore, we start out with a black duck, if male, and since chocolate is recessive and gender linked...the male duck or drake must be pure or homozygous for chocolate to have chocolate plumage show visually and not be hidden.
Chocolate Male duck - d"d" / d"d"
Now for a female duck to be chocolate feathered, she will only have ONE allele for chocolate. She cannot have TWO alleles for chocolate like the male duck has because she is a female and female ducks may only possess ONE Z chromosome and only the Z chromosome is long enough to have any useful colour genetic information on it. To be a girl, a female is Z / y and the "y" chromosome is short and does not carry any colour genetic information that we yet know of.
Chocolate Female duck - d"d" / -
(nothing there...the dash or "-" means her y chromosome has nothing on it for colour genetics)
A female bird can only get gender linked information from her father. Her mother decides her gender by giving her the y chromosome BUT on the y chromosome that makes her a girl, there is no colour genetic information passed on by her mother. Again, only her father can give her genetic information on his Z chromosome (it being longer than the girly y chromosome and having STUFF on it to give to his daughter).
This therefore means...
When a Chocolate drake is bred to a Black hen, the resulting offspring's genders may be determined by the colours of the ducklings produced.
To review...
The father duck is Chocolate
The mother duck is Black...
Dad duck gives all his children one single dose of the gender linked recessive mutation for chocolate BUT his sons will not show the hidden recessive chocolate when produced from a black Mother because she has given her sons her Z chromosome which is NOT for chocolate or she herself would have been a Chocolate female duck.
Dad duck gives his daughter one dose for chocolate and when Mother duck gives her daughters her Z chromosome (remember, her Z chromosome is D"+" or wild time and NOT for chocolate), it is Dad's one gene for chocolate that makes his daughters chocolate feathered.
Basically, Chocolate drake bred to Black duck means daughters get chocolate from the Dad so are Chocolate and the sons will be Black but carry the hidden Chocolate gene or allele their father gave them. Keeping in mind, that male ducks must have TWO doses of a gender recessive allele to express it, female ducks have only ONE dose of gender recessive allele to be Chocolate.
If these were the day olds produced from the chocolate drake and black hen;
the black duckling is male, and the chocolates would be females
Now I hope some others understand the inheritance of gender linked recessive chocolate in ducks????
Swimming yesterday, just got to lap 24 when an older fellow took a dive...not into the pool but hit the floor. Meant all us lappers had to leave so the ambulance could come and retrieve him.
Rick got the bricks around the fish pond removed, tub out and begins today working on installing it back in.
Pearl has laid her sixth egg.
Mystery species that we have never gotten eggs from, has laid a second egg...
Any guessers yet as to what type of bird laid this egg.
Apr 28 2017
Woke up to snow but since the ground is still frozen, not unexpected.
Apr 27 2017
Weekend fast approaches and dog food is on sale...so that means, need to go to town and buy five or so bags.
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
- Thread starter
- #2,275
Heel low:
So uh, yah...past Benny saving the day, eh
... Pretty much gave you the answer to choco drake x black hen...
So now you get to answer more...testing, testing, TESTing you all
Chocolate in ducks of Mallard descent is gender linked and recessive...
The phenotype (what they look like visually) and genotype (what the genetic instructions are--the recipe) are our next task.
When I cross chocolate drake to black duck we get black male ducklings and chocolate female ducklings. We can tell at day olds what gender the ducklings ARE...so that part is major
Now test time.
We are going to focus solely on the chocolate aspect of ducks...knowing of course that the BASE for chocolate (diluters like blue and chocolate) must have another mutation from wild type, the ducks must first be BLACK based for the colour genetics to dilute something. One deviation from wild type is the black ducks must be E for Extended Black which is incompletely dominant meaning the ducks must be E/E or homozygous for black or PURE for black. Get me??
I don't need to learn this stuff...some of you do since I am already using this hands on in my bevies.
Thankfully, MY ducks will provide the examples and this makes it all the more fun because I am not talking out my butt here, I am showing you live in the flesh (and feathered) examples.
Lots of these persons that do the colour genetics poultry wise...very rare indeed to SEE them providing examples from their own breeding programs. Tis all about credibility AND hands on learning...not some stuff in a book which I can say over the years, I have proven time and again are not the be all to end all. I personally discovered Pattern White...where a self-coloured duck can start a line of bib, then more white to make pied, to make all the way to a completely white feathered duck. That a perfectly fine Mille de Fleur can be made on the e-series base of eb or e"+" jest fine...these things you learn, because you study, research and APPLY yourself and observe the results and try to make sense of all this...but I digress...
What I want is you all to independently start understanding and answering your own colour genetic queries, answer you own questions of "what if?"...because...
Chinese proverb:
I want you to independently go forth and do things for yourself...not cripple you where you have to keep coming back...and bothering me because I am busy...bwa ha ha...with my OWN projects I am trying to decipher and learn from.
So when breeding for chocolate in ducks of Mallard descent...we use a black based duck and chocolate dilution. Yes, you may breed chocolate x chocolate and reliably get all chocolate ducklings but hey, there is not much to learn from that breeding...so lets do as I am currently doing...using black and chocolate ducks to make more of the same.
The girl duck below...
PHENOTYPE is black
GENOTYPE is D"+" / -
The girl duck below...
PHENOTYPE is chocolate
GENOTYPE is d"d" / -
So with recessive gender linked chocolate...the female ducks have the potential for TWO Phenotypes (black or chocolate) and TWO Genotypes (D"+"/- or d"d"/-). The girl duck is exactly what you see...she is black or she is chocolate AND she does not hide nothing...she can't because her short female chromosome to make her gender can contain NO information.
Girl bird is pink with small purse below her - w/z
Boy bird is blue with a large wallet below him - z/z
Note the pink EMPTY W chromosome beside PINK gal
Note the blue porcupine balls represent the Z chromosomes...
Girl has one boo Z and empty pink W and boy has two boo Z's
Fun thing about girl birds regarding gender linked properties...she has the tiny purse in this gender and she has NO SPACE to hide nothing so she reveals ALL...the male bird, well he can hide stuff in his big wallet...boy birds have the BIG wallet and girl ducks have the tiny purse with her having only ONE spot to have gender linked items and she SHOWS you what she has in her purse... The boy duck will have two Z chromosomes and he can hide something on one of the Z chromosomes IF the gender linked gene is a simple dominant/recessive inherited trait.
Good...now try the male ducks. Even a tiny child should be able to do the phenotype...I am basically asking y'all, What colour are these drakes...what colour do YOU SEE??
This male duck is...
PHENOTYPE is ???
GENOTYPE is ???
This male duck is...
PHENOTYPE is ???
GENOTYPE is ???
For added bonus points...simply state the genotype of this blue drake...blue is the phenotype of the drake, we see a BLUE duck...righto??
GENOTYPE is E/E for black plus ???
HINT...not gender linked SO way easier than chocolate. Blue dilution is incompletely dominant AND also requires a black base, so the drake has to be E/E for Extended black plus WHAT genotype for blue dilution??
As we go along here...it will make all perfect sense on why I bought a black drake, a chocolate drake, a black hen, and a blue drake. I got me BLACK with TWO dilution possibilities...I can have me duckies make us black ducks, blue ducks, splash ducks AND chocolate duck a lucks...how
What did I say about having black based ducks in a previous post...Gotta luv a duck, especially a black one with SO many possible colours...colour me duck ducks...what colourful fun!
The dogs could sit and look at birds all day...everyday, eh!
Oh yeh, and DD would never forgive me to delve only in duck genetics...laughed and laughed when I realized I captured this click yesterday...
Yes, Lacy knows karate - Karate CHOP!!!
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
So uh, yah...past Benny saving the day, eh
So now you get to answer more...testing, testing, TESTing you all
Chocolate in ducks of Mallard descent is gender linked and recessive...
The phenotype (what they look like visually) and genotype (what the genetic instructions are--the recipe) are our next task.
When I cross chocolate drake to black duck we get black male ducklings and chocolate female ducklings. We can tell at day olds what gender the ducklings ARE...so that part is major
Now test time.
We are going to focus solely on the chocolate aspect of ducks...knowing of course that the BASE for chocolate (diluters like blue and chocolate) must have another mutation from wild type, the ducks must first be BLACK based for the colour genetics to dilute something. One deviation from wild type is the black ducks must be E for Extended Black which is incompletely dominant meaning the ducks must be E/E or homozygous for black or PURE for black. Get me??
I don't need to learn this stuff...some of you do since I am already using this hands on in my bevies.
Thankfully, MY ducks will provide the examples and this makes it all the more fun because I am not talking out my butt here, I am showing you live in the flesh (and feathered) examples.
Lots of these persons that do the colour genetics poultry wise...very rare indeed to SEE them providing examples from their own breeding programs. Tis all about credibility AND hands on learning...not some stuff in a book which I can say over the years, I have proven time and again are not the be all to end all. I personally discovered Pattern White...where a self-coloured duck can start a line of bib, then more white to make pied, to make all the way to a completely white feathered duck. That a perfectly fine Mille de Fleur can be made on the e-series base of eb or e"+" jest fine...these things you learn, because you study, research and APPLY yourself and observe the results and try to make sense of all this...but I digress...
What I want is you all to independently start understanding and answering your own colour genetic queries, answer you own questions of "what if?"...because...
Chinese proverb:
I want you to independently go forth and do things for yourself...not cripple you where you have to keep coming back...and bothering me because I am busy...bwa ha ha...with my OWN projects I am trying to decipher and learn from.
So when breeding for chocolate in ducks of Mallard descent...we use a black based duck and chocolate dilution. Yes, you may breed chocolate x chocolate and reliably get all chocolate ducklings but hey, there is not much to learn from that breeding...so lets do as I am currently doing...using black and chocolate ducks to make more of the same.
The girl duck below...
PHENOTYPE is black
GENOTYPE is D"+" / -
The girl duck below...
PHENOTYPE is chocolate
GENOTYPE is d"d" / -
So with recessive gender linked chocolate...the female ducks have the potential for TWO Phenotypes (black or chocolate) and TWO Genotypes (D"+"/- or d"d"/-). The girl duck is exactly what you see...she is black or she is chocolate AND she does not hide nothing...she can't because her short female chromosome to make her gender can contain NO information.
Girl bird is pink with small purse below her - w/z
Boy bird is blue with a large wallet below him - z/z
Note the pink EMPTY W chromosome beside PINK gal
Note the blue porcupine balls represent the Z chromosomes...
Girl has one boo Z and empty pink W and boy has two boo Z's
Fun thing about girl birds regarding gender linked properties...she has the tiny purse in this gender and she has NO SPACE to hide nothing so she reveals ALL...the male bird, well he can hide stuff in his big wallet...boy birds have the BIG wallet and girl ducks have the tiny purse with her having only ONE spot to have gender linked items and she SHOWS you what she has in her purse... The boy duck will have two Z chromosomes and he can hide something on one of the Z chromosomes IF the gender linked gene is a simple dominant/recessive inherited trait.
Good...now try the male ducks. Even a tiny child should be able to do the phenotype...I am basically asking y'all, What colour are these drakes...what colour do YOU SEE??
This male duck is...
PHENOTYPE is ???
GENOTYPE is ???
This male duck is...
PHENOTYPE is ???
GENOTYPE is ???
For added bonus points...simply state the genotype of this blue drake...blue is the phenotype of the drake, we see a BLUE duck...righto??
GENOTYPE is E/E for black plus ???
HINT...not gender linked SO way easier than chocolate. Blue dilution is incompletely dominant AND also requires a black base, so the drake has to be E/E for Extended black plus WHAT genotype for blue dilution??
As we go along here...it will make all perfect sense on why I bought a black drake, a chocolate drake, a black hen, and a blue drake. I got me BLACK with TWO dilution possibilities...I can have me duckies make us black ducks, blue ducks, splash ducks AND chocolate duck a lucks...how
What did I say about having black based ducks in a previous post...Gotta luv a duck, especially a black one with SO many possible colours...colour me duck ducks...what colourful fun!
The dogs could sit and look at birds all day...everyday, eh!
Oh yeh, and DD would never forgive me to delve only in duck genetics...laughed and laughed when I realized I captured this click yesterday...
Yes, Lacy knows karate - Karate CHOP!!!
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
Chocolate dd/dd
Black D+/D+ or D+/dd
Blue the same as the black with the dilution gens
I can't understand the signs of the alleles you are using
Is the symbol of the female genotype dd/- means that she have 2 d alleles(dd) on ONE Z chromosome?
Black D+/D+ or D+/dd
Blue the same as the black with the dilution gens
I can't understand the signs of the alleles you are using
Is the symbol of the female genotype dd/- means that she have 2 d alleles(dd) on ONE Z chromosome?
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #2,278
Thank you Benny!
In my past posts on genetics (which you likely have not read...), I use the quotation marks to represent a subscript.
The plus sign (+) with quotation marks (" ") means subscript as in wild type.
I would expect most here would not "get" the many exceptions to the "rules" in genetics... nondisjunction, disorders like Downs syndrome...triple x syndrome...it is difficult enough for the basics to be understood let alone adding exceptions to the rules, eh.
Many that read my posts struggle with the basics.
A good review for many AND chicken related is offered up on the Net by Henk. Henk is a marvellously generous person and he created the chicken calculator which simplifies Punnett Square use. LOL Henk asked me ages ago to get some photos of my Call ducks submitted to be used in his duck calculator version...not sure where I would find the time to do that, so that has not happened yet...oh well...having fun, lets time fly. Never bored...
http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm#koekoekEN:
Just have a look at the changes in simple words like "gay" which use to mean jolly, jovial and happy and can be used to describe a bird's feathering colour pattern that is too white to what is wanted in the Standard for a colour variety ...that now, means a whole other aspect to humans...bwa ha ha.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This male duck is...
PHENOTYPE is ONE which is Chocolate.
GENOTYPE is ONE which is d"d" / d"d".
If the duck was a female, she would be d"d" / - and chocolate.
This male duck is...
PHENOTYPE is ONE which is Black.
GENOTYPE is TWO which are D"+" / d"d" and D"+" / D"+" or as some type to represent an unknown for sure, D"+" / - ...yet another dash ("-" har har) which in this case does not mean the w chromosome. Dashes can confuse and I oft wondered, why not use a question mark for a hidden recessive in a dominant ordering. D"+" / ? ... but I suppose using a question mark would be too open as we do believe it is either a d"d" or a D"+" that is hidden by the one D"+" in the d series. Using a question mark would make persons believe that "anything" may be hidden by the dominant wild type D"+".
GENOTYPE is E/E for black plus Bl / bl"+"
Blue is incompletely dominant, so only ONE blue dilution is required to dilute the black (eumelanin) to a shade of grey or what we call blue. Two blue dilutions make splash which is close to a white with some black and some blue feathers peaking thru in many cases. Splash represents what doubling up on a dilution allele causes and the fact that blue dilution is a leaky and less precise diluter of black pigments. Splash is like white, NO pigment or at the very least, a reduced amount of pigment. Lavender is a kewl (though causes feather mishaps, not my fav gene) in that it dilutes both red and black (eumelanin AND phaeomelanin). Lavender is autosomal (not gender linked) and recessive, so requires two copies to be seen.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
my only take away from all this is "Lacy knows karate." Amen!Yay Lacy
I expected you to at the very least comment on the phenotypes of the ducks...you can see the one drake is chocolate, the other black and yet another is blue.
Oh well...yes, Lacy knows karate and maybe even several other words of a foreign language to English (with or without a heavy Australian or Canadian accent!).
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
I've been racking my brains as to what coulda laid that egg... Too big for pheasant, and geese, swans, ducks, and chooks have already been there... 
It is a goos egg.
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