http://smallfarms.cornell.edu/2011/01/09/dorper-sheep-truths-and-myths/
Tara this is for you.
Tara this is for you.
Jest Another Day in Pear-A-Dice - Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm in Alberta
- Thread starter CanuckBock
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #2,612
Ah darn...told you my mind has gone to mush... the kg to pound converter I used was only half the equation! I never stopped to think about it was kg to pounds to money... Ha ha ha. Love when I completely go duh...
Love summers, I get dumber by the day, eh!
You are not in La La land as bad as I...sigh.
164 pounds x what you say, $31.80 = $5,215.20 / 3 lambs = $1,738.40 a lamb - so the fantasy is still fun...just not as HUGE as I thought. Nyuck nyuck
Guess I better quit sitting in the sun sucking in the sights and go back to work...work...yeh, by Tuesday...wah wah wah...mind was mush and now they will hafta retrain me.
Love being off...I am all OFF.
I just imagine you in OUER summer!
- Thread starter
- #2,614
Heel low:
Hate heat...nope, not going thar.
I cannot work in heat, so no work = very unhappy me!
I pitched the ram barn out yesterday...because it was a cool day. Still lots of work but add heat and I want to crawl out of my skin and still work. Not good--bloody mess that would be!
I have had Dorpers since May 2016 and chose an unrelated ram and ewes produced by UNRELATED rams so the foundation of females was pretty unrelated, diverse contributors for a foundation flock. Now, I did bring home a daughter and mother, but daughter is by a ram that is not closely related to any other Dorpers here....HOWEVER...the South African genetics we have are loosely sprinkled and related in all Dorpers--can't be Dorper if there is no genetics FROM South Africa, eh.
So, likely because we cannot import directly from South Africa (country of origin) any more, we are allowed to UPGRADE the Dorper breed. By back crossing to registered Dorpers, these progeny are considered registerable as a domestic purebreds for females at 15/16's and males 31/32.
Having only bred two ewes to a very unrelated ram (Boss Man), I have no idea if there are genetic problems in the Dorper breed due to inbreeding in Canada. I looked at the inbreeding coefficients and was satisfied my foundations and breedings with Boss Man would be pretty diverse.
I never chose Dorpers that were inbred.
Inbreeding Coefficients
Boss Man - 0.246%
Peanut - 6.655%
Èva - 1.121%
Èder - 1.121%
Snickers - 4.079%
D'Arcy - 3.366%
Èden - 2.629%
Duro's dam - 2.863%
The highest inbred Dorper is Peanut and I chose her because I wanted old time Dorper lines.
We know what Boss Man bred to Snickers and Peanut is (the three lambs from this June) and Boss Man bred to D'Arcy = 1.779% & bred to Duro's dam 4.197% so wild optimistic guess for Duro would be half her dam at 2.09%.
My lambs by Boss Man are 1.121% & 2.629% inbred...that's pretty low.
I done good...those numbers are lower than any in my foundation ewe flock...an improvement from my beginning point, yes???
I am now due to backcross or INBREED (linebreeding is a nicer, less extreme term!) my lines. Find a top representative relative (which is what Eldad is suppose to be!) and use him to instill same to same or better. We are breeding for a consistent product that conforms to a Breed Standard. You keep doing wild outcrosses of completely unrelateds and I may as well be breeding rhinos for release into the wilds...yes?
Hybrid vigour is fine...to a point but I don't want to rely on unrelateds or unlikes bred to differents as the only reason why my animals are doing well! I want to breed good animals to good animals with the desired traits I want to conform to the Dorper Breed Standard...that is far more reliable a practise that going out and always, always finding unrelated to breed together. Unrelated and likely unlike each other too. We have a limited gene pool in Dorpers here in Canada and one of the reasons that one vet (that created Boss Man) got out of this breed was his frustration at always having to bring in new lines...gets expensive plus difficult and you are heading to a place where the entire population in the world runs out as being a source for new blood.
This is domestic livestock, registered in a limited gene pool that needs to conform to a Breed Standard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depression
So now to avoid outcrossing depression. You breed out too often and there are negatives like negatives to inbreeding depression. Conformity is important when breeding domestic livestock that has a breed Standard to adhere to...we are breeding a breed to produce PUREBREDS and we want the Dorpers to conform to a Breed Standard (set outline of traits as our objective).
Like to like begets more LIKE but also can act exactly like close inbreeding. Mother Nature does not care where the same traits come from and I abhor the use of the term "inbreeding depression"...because you can get the same negatives from breeding two distant animals together that are NOT related but have the same characteristics or traits (as often listed in the BREED STANDARDS!). So the more your animals conform identically to the Breed Standard...and with a closed registered gene pool (only allowed to choose to breed from other registered members), that limits the diversity even more so.
Closed purebred registered group = limited breeding gene pool.
Adherence to a Breed Standard = more animals that are the same.
Same to Same repeatedly over & over = inbreeding depression just like they were heavily inbred or related to each other even when they are not related!
Hybrid vigour is Nature's reward for choosing to keep healthy diversity in your gene pool going on.
Humans choose to keep closed registries on animals which lowers diversity and breeding choices. I am blessed I can upgrade the Dorpers...more options there!
And humans choose to breed animals to fit a Breed Standard (peas in a pod).
When perusing Eldad's ancestors, DEL'MAR is his origin which is also in my foundation ewes. Granted, there ARE some highly inbred animals in these lines...ah but the majority of these used over and over again animals ARE Type 5 Dorpers! The grading system is rated to a maximum of 5 points for conformation, size, fat, colour, and cover. A label like Type 5 Dorper is the top notch mark in this grading system.
DEL'MAR had many of their Dorpers graded by South African qualified inspectors. There are ewes AND rams there (two rams in his pedigree, 2nd from the top of the list and fourth from the top of the rams) that are listed as Type 5 and stated as being "Superior Herd Sire" in conformation, size, fat, colour, and cover. Both rams and ewes are graded and Eldad's pedigree looks like a who's who in Del'Mar's top flock graded Dorpers along with other lines of Type 5 Dorpers.
If they are inbred, it is on top end proven Dorpers.
The Standard of Excellence is the Breed Standard.
http://www.canadiandorper.org/typing_of_dorpers
Likely I won't inbreed like some have...but a back cross now and again...can't knock that breeding strategy as you can see Type 5's are replicating MORE Type 5's!!
Seen this one. Wrong breed though. Dorpers with white heads are not the same as Dorpers with Black-heads (what I have). Two different strains according to the Canadian registry.
CANADIAN LIVESTOCK RECORDS CORPORATION
CANADIAN SHEEP BREEDERS ASSOCIATION
RULES OF ELIGIBILITY
Some things apply to both strains; like they won't go to fat on what I feed them, but the whites have like maybe just under 20 breeders across all of Canada and the Black-headed Dorpers (referred to as just DORPERS) have that many just in each province or so.
Many persons have both White Dorpers and Black-headed Dorpers.
Back to me and the expensive racks of lamb. Laugh my butt off...same grocery store, pretty likely the SAME lamb...now cut into chops (suspicious long boned, clean ended bone on the chops--like you do for racks of lamb) ... so nobody wanted the racks of lamb in the shrink wrapped plastic...so the butchers must have cut them to chops. Around about $13.50 to $14 a kg. After the last fiasco...someone ELSE can convert the price per kg to pounds...I missed the dollar conversion then kg to pounds and not caught up on being burnt out and plain tired.
Yesterday evening, I cleared out the ram barn, Rick moved it to next pasture and we set up the corrals and whatnot's at the new location...all in preparation for Eldad's arrival. Son just called, got my livestock manifestation and bill of sale (in case the owners have not drafted either up...moving). So past paying for the crate to haul him in (do that tonight), we are as ready as able.
Bring on the ram lamb!
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
I just imagine you in OUER summer!
Hate heat...nope, not going thar.
I cannot work in heat, so no work = very unhappy me!
I pitched the ram barn out yesterday...because it was a cool day. Still lots of work but add heat and I want to crawl out of my skin and still work. Not good--bloody mess that would be!
I have had Dorpers since May 2016 and chose an unrelated ram and ewes produced by UNRELATED rams so the foundation of females was pretty unrelated, diverse contributors for a foundation flock. Now, I did bring home a daughter and mother, but daughter is by a ram that is not closely related to any other Dorpers here....HOWEVER...the South African genetics we have are loosely sprinkled and related in all Dorpers--can't be Dorper if there is no genetics FROM South Africa, eh.
So, likely because we cannot import directly from South Africa (country of origin) any more, we are allowed to UPGRADE the Dorper breed. By back crossing to registered Dorpers, these progeny are considered registerable as a domestic purebreds for females at 15/16's and males 31/32.
Having only bred two ewes to a very unrelated ram (Boss Man), I have no idea if there are genetic problems in the Dorper breed due to inbreeding in Canada. I looked at the inbreeding coefficients and was satisfied my foundations and breedings with Boss Man would be pretty diverse.
I never chose Dorpers that were inbred.
Inbreeding Coefficients
Boss Man - 0.246%
Peanut - 6.655%
Èva - 1.121%
Èder - 1.121%
Snickers - 4.079%
D'Arcy - 3.366%
Èden - 2.629%
Duro's dam - 2.863%
The highest inbred Dorper is Peanut and I chose her because I wanted old time Dorper lines.
We know what Boss Man bred to Snickers and Peanut is (the three lambs from this June) and Boss Man bred to D'Arcy = 1.779% & bred to Duro's dam 4.197% so wild optimistic guess for Duro would be half her dam at 2.09%.
My lambs by Boss Man are 1.121% & 2.629% inbred...that's pretty low.
I done good...those numbers are lower than any in my foundation ewe flock...an improvement from my beginning point, yes???
I am now due to backcross or INBREED (linebreeding is a nicer, less extreme term!) my lines. Find a top representative relative (which is what Eldad is suppose to be!) and use him to instill same to same or better. We are breeding for a consistent product that conforms to a Breed Standard. You keep doing wild outcrosses of completely unrelateds and I may as well be breeding rhinos for release into the wilds...yes?
Hybrid vigour is fine...to a point but I don't want to rely on unrelateds or unlikes bred to differents as the only reason why my animals are doing well! I want to breed good animals to good animals with the desired traits I want to conform to the Dorper Breed Standard...that is far more reliable a practise that going out and always, always finding unrelated to breed together. Unrelated and likely unlike each other too. We have a limited gene pool in Dorpers here in Canada and one of the reasons that one vet (that created Boss Man) got out of this breed was his frustration at always having to bring in new lines...gets expensive plus difficult and you are heading to a place where the entire population in the world runs out as being a source for new blood.
This is domestic livestock, registered in a limited gene pool that needs to conform to a Breed Standard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outbreeding_depression
So now to avoid outcrossing depression. You breed out too often and there are negatives like negatives to inbreeding depression. Conformity is important when breeding domestic livestock that has a breed Standard to adhere to...we are breeding a breed to produce PUREBREDS and we want the Dorpers to conform to a Breed Standard (set outline of traits as our objective).
Like to like begets more LIKE but also can act exactly like close inbreeding. Mother Nature does not care where the same traits come from and I abhor the use of the term "inbreeding depression"...because you can get the same negatives from breeding two distant animals together that are NOT related but have the same characteristics or traits (as often listed in the BREED STANDARDS!). So the more your animals conform identically to the Breed Standard...and with a closed registered gene pool (only allowed to choose to breed from other registered members), that limits the diversity even more so.
Closed purebred registered group = limited breeding gene pool.
Adherence to a Breed Standard = more animals that are the same.
Same to Same repeatedly over & over = inbreeding depression just like they were heavily inbred or related to each other even when they are not related!
Hybrid vigour is Nature's reward for choosing to keep healthy diversity in your gene pool going on.
Humans choose to keep closed registries on animals which lowers diversity and breeding choices. I am blessed I can upgrade the Dorpers...more options there!
And humans choose to breed animals to fit a Breed Standard (peas in a pod).
When perusing Eldad's ancestors, DEL'MAR is his origin which is also in my foundation ewes. Granted, there ARE some highly inbred animals in these lines...ah but the majority of these used over and over again animals ARE Type 5 Dorpers! The grading system is rated to a maximum of 5 points for conformation, size, fat, colour, and cover. A label like Type 5 Dorper is the top notch mark in this grading system.
DEL'MAR had many of their Dorpers graded by South African qualified inspectors. There are ewes AND rams there (two rams in his pedigree, 2nd from the top of the list and fourth from the top of the rams) that are listed as Type 5 and stated as being "Superior Herd Sire" in conformation, size, fat, colour, and cover. Both rams and ewes are graded and Eldad's pedigree looks like a who's who in Del'Mar's top flock graded Dorpers along with other lines of Type 5 Dorpers.
If they are inbred, it is on top end proven Dorpers.
The Standard of Excellence is the Breed Standard.
http://www.canadiandorper.org/typing_of_dorpers
Likely I won't inbreed like some have...but a back cross now and again...can't knock that breeding strategy as you can see Type 5's are replicating MORE Type 5's!!
Seen this one. Wrong breed though. Dorpers with white heads are not the same as Dorpers with Black-heads (what I have). Two different strains according to the Canadian registry.
CANADIAN LIVESTOCK RECORDS CORPORATION
CANADIAN SHEEP BREEDERS ASSOCIATION
RULES OF ELIGIBILITY
Some things apply to both strains; like they won't go to fat on what I feed them, but the whites have like maybe just under 20 breeders across all of Canada and the Black-headed Dorpers (referred to as just DORPERS) have that many just in each province or so.
Many persons have both White Dorpers and Black-headed Dorpers.
Back to me and the expensive racks of lamb. Laugh my butt off...same grocery store, pretty likely the SAME lamb...now cut into chops (suspicious long boned, clean ended bone on the chops--like you do for racks of lamb) ... so nobody wanted the racks of lamb in the shrink wrapped plastic...so the butchers must have cut them to chops. Around about $13.50 to $14 a kg. After the last fiasco...someone ELSE can convert the price per kg to pounds...I missed the dollar conversion then kg to pounds and not caught up on being burnt out and plain tired.
Yesterday evening, I cleared out the ram barn, Rick moved it to next pasture and we set up the corrals and whatnot's at the new location...all in preparation for Eldad's arrival. Son just called, got my livestock manifestation and bill of sale (in case the owners have not drafted either up...moving). So past paying for the crate to haul him in (do that tonight), we are as ready as able.
Bring on the ram lamb!
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
I do hope all goes well for this Ram Lamb!!
Scott
Scott
me too, alot is expected of him
- Thread starter
- #2,617
Heel low:Thanks eh!
All one may do when the owners are moving off their sold farm and in their 80's, is do up a well thought out plan and hope for the best. It won't not happen because my son and I did not give it a good shot. Things are meant to be and if you have to FIGHT too hard, I have learned to let it go and contemplate, maybe it was a horror I am missing out on? You just don't know do you?
Told my boy...don't sweat this. If it all falls into place, great but if not, well I guess I am the proud owner of yet ANOTHER dog crate (huge one) that will be used to haul sheep around now and in the future. I really don't need any more crates and kennels, but if my son shows up and the ram lamb is there to be transported here...he needs that crate.
Some of the wire folding crates
Have I posted these photos of some of my containers in the Hay & Straw barn...I forget?
Behind these stacks of crates and kennels
are rabbit cages, three tiers of doubles
I ended up with these two fold...if we have to evacuate, we got containers for the animals and birds...
More kennels and crates to show different sizes
If'n I have to take sheep to the Vet's...
This wire crate (these kinds are not international airline approved)
will house three smalls OR one large...
Quite frankly, if the ram lamb does not happen, no worries! We already have these genetics, so we just don't get to double up with using him. I could breed out a few more generations and make a cross back with our own Dorpers in a few years.
I firstly need a companion ram lamb for Èder to be weaned with...then another breeding ram; in that order.
Yesteday, I went and looked at the inbreeding coefficients of the Type 5 rams and ewes we have in Del'Mar genetics...most all of them are NOT what I considered inbred themselves, in fact a few are at zero because they are embryo's and not usually rated on the CLRC site.
This warns me that there are superior genetics, but also superior genetics that are not inbred themselves. I have to be very careful.
One good thing about messing with breeding sheep like Dorpers, if I truly fudge up royally...I can always...always EAT MY MISTAKES... Horrible as that sounds, livestock and poultry, we can play a bit more intensely... In a dog though, I would be even more concerned how inbreeding lines might go. They are companions and I personally don't look at dog like "everyone gets a LEG!" LOL
I think the girls figure I am not even funny...
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
- Thread starter
- #2,618
Heel low:
Wanted to show off how useful my new cart has been for us here.
This is a week's worth of hay for two llamas, old doe goat and two old Jacob sheeps!
I can't always count on Rick being home to run the tractor for me...so to keep things running smoothly (put another log on the fire, eh?), having this big cart means no sweat easy peasy to get a load of hay to the other side of the property!
Aug 31 - it has been kinda haze some days
with all the fires in the province next to us
There go the helper dogs
putting the Jacob ewes away
Best part about the cart, is the DUMP!
Works marvelous!
Hay delivered and done like dinner for another week is completed--ready and waiting to be dolled out.
I know that DD is going to smile and laugh...she knows what I am going to do next...she won't be surprised...after a load of hay, eh...what loads up nice next??
The GIRLS!!
But no chance to dump dogs...they bounded out immediately...
And then we haul it back to the middle of the place...never quite sure what load might be needed to be moved next.
Huge bonus, the cart is water tight so it use to take me three trips in the horse carts to bring water...now one load in this cart and sheep tub size is full...
Room for one more photo file...I keep forgetting to post my taters...here the are same day, Aug 31...
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
Wanted to show off how useful my new cart has been for us here.
This is a week's worth of hay for two llamas, old doe goat and two old Jacob sheeps!
I can't always count on Rick being home to run the tractor for me...so to keep things running smoothly (put another log on the fire, eh?), having this big cart means no sweat easy peasy to get a load of hay to the other side of the property!
Aug 31 - it has been kinda haze some days
with all the fires in the province next to us
There go the helper dogs
putting the Jacob ewes away
Best part about the cart, is the DUMP!
Works marvelous!
I know that DD is going to smile and laugh...she knows what I am going to do next...she won't be surprised...after a load of hay, eh...what loads up nice next??
The GIRLS!!
But no chance to dump dogs...they bounded out immediately...
And then we haul it back to the middle of the place...never quite sure what load might be needed to be moved next.
Huge bonus, the cart is water tight so it use to take me three trips in the horse carts to bring water...now one load in this cart and sheep tub size is full...
Awesome! 
Room for one more photo file...I keep forgetting to post my taters...here the are same day, Aug 31...
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
- Thread starter
- #2,619
Heel low:
Crabapples need a bit of cold weather, frost like we get in October, to become sweet...but that don't stop the girls. They pine and pester...every evening...when Dad comes home...he has a job that needs doing...the TASTING must occur!
Dad is picking us CRABS!
Lacy tries...she luvs fruit!
"CaKKK!!"
Emmy looks on...her tasted crabapple already Cakked out!
Truly Dad? You got to be kidding with me!
Phutooee! Blick!
Emmy tries hers again and succeeds in eating it!
Only to now haunt Lacy for hers...
Lacy's crab has to be good...or she would not be guarding it so well!
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
Crabapples need a bit of cold weather, frost like we get in October, to become sweet...but that don't stop the girls. They pine and pester...every evening...when Dad comes home...he has a job that needs doing...the TASTING must occur!
Dad is picking us CRABS!
Lacy tries...she luvs fruit!
"CaKKK!!"
Emmy looks on...her tasted crabapple already Cakked out!
Truly Dad? You got to be kidding with me!
Phutooee! Blick!
Emmy tries hers again and succeeds in eating it!
Only to now haunt Lacy for hers...
Lacy's crab has to be good...or she would not be guarding it so well!
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
- Thread starter
- #2,620
Heel low:
Never enough dog clicks posted...never!
Butt pats...bestest!
Em looking cute
Lacy looking cute
(note how dark her nose is after a summer of fun in the sun)
Dog days of summer...
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
Never enough dog clicks posted...never!
Butt pats...bestest!
Em looking cute
Lacy looking cute
(note how dark her nose is after a summer of fun in the sun)
Dog days of summer...
Doggone & Chicken UP!
Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
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