Lack of Natural Selection

[PassifloraCaninus]

Sure you can move it, I hope it's not too much of a controversial subject. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with such concerns though

 

[ronott1]

I can move it for you, if you want?

Good idea!

 

[BantyChooks]

I moved it to Managing your Flock.

 

[Amer]

I have said this for over a decade and will continue to do so, to anyone involved. NPIP though has its good intentions, really isn't in my opinion necessarily the best. I've had more breeders tell me everyone else is just backyard breeding if you are not 'trying to improve the birds.' I don't find having giant balls of feathers and fluff with proper coloration an acceptable tradeoff generally speaking. Chickens should be breed for resilience, tolerance to climates, resistance, broodiness, alertness, laying ability and health foremost and before anything else. Really why I've moved more towards Landraces in my later years, they figure it out themselves and you still get amazing birds. Culling a bird for poor tail angle, that's really a thing. I've left a number of breeder groups for the above reasons. It's a shallow and superficial world I fully believe if you are doing anything but that.

I believe if you don't like what is being bred, breed something different.
Some of the best, most healthy birds are show quality birds in the utility classes.
Cochins have lost their dual purpose qualities, as well as English Orpingtons, however, American Orpingtons, Rhode Island Reds, Buckeyes, and Rocks bred to a standard can have more of a meat and eggs and health combo than anything out there.
Culling for sickness does get rid of the weak birds just like natural selection, however, breeders have also had success letting the sickness be exposed to their flock.


Sickness in one bird should usually be stopped by death of that bird though. I mean really, would you rather have one bird die than the whole flock?

 

[PassifloraCaninus]

I can move it for you, if you want?

I moved it to Managing your Flock.

Thank you, and thank you to everyone for being so understanding. I like a healthy discussion. I was under the impression that MG was just forbidden, and that terrified me, because I spent the last 3 years of my life working and furthering the health of my birds, and to think that I would have to kill them has made me rethink my entire life, because I couldn't do it. I immediately switched my plans to focus on Botany. I still don't think I would feel comfortable selling birds to people, even if it is legal, unless the people already have MG. How people raise their flocks is their choice, and I would hate to accidentally be the cause of someone losing their flock.

 

[Amer]

Thank you, and thank you to everyone for being so understanding. I like a healthy discussion. I was under the impression that MG was just forbidden, and that terrified me, because I spent the last 3 years of my life working and furthering the health of my birds, and to think that I would have to kill them has made me rethink my entire life, because I couldn't do it. I immediately switched my plans to focus on Botany. I still don't think I would feel comfortable selling birds to people, even if it is legal, unless the people already have MG. How people raise their flocks is their choice, and I would hate to accidentally be the cause of someone losing their flock.

I understand. My birds have that too. I wish I had just killed that one in the first place, so many have died since, but now the whole flock is infected.

 

[boskelli1571]

I have said this for over a decade and will continue to do so, to anyone involved. NPIP though has its good intentions, really isn't in my opinion necessarily the best. I've had more breeders tell me everyone else is just backyard breeding if you are not 'trying to improve the birds.' I don't find having giant balls of feathers and fluff with proper coloration an acceptable tradeoff generally speaking. Chickens should be breed for resilience, tolerance to climates, resistance, broodiness, alertness, laying ability and health foremost and before anything else. Really why I've moved more towards Landraces in my later years, they figure it out themselves and you still get amazing birds. Culling a bird for poor tail angle, that's really a thing. I've left a number of breeder groups for the above reasons. It's a shallow and superficial world I fully believe if you are doing anything but that.

It's good to hear from someone who thinks similarly. In the UK some of the top poultry folks are questioning the loss of utility to 'perfection'.
Since the idea of perfection has movable goalposts I find it a bit pointless really.
I believe that birds should be bred for resilience - that's what they did before the idea of 'the standard' came along.
I too, have a closed flock with (likely) some Mareks going on. This is part of the reason why I don't see much point to the NPIP certification, testing for AI & pullorum is good -as far as it goes, but devastating diseases like LL and Mareks should also be tested for, imho.

 

[PassifloraCaninus]

It's good to hear from someone who thinks similarly. In the UK some of the top poultry folks are questioning the loss of utility to 'perfection'.
Since the idea of perfection has movable goalposts I find it a bit pointless really.
I believe that birds should be bred for resilience - that's what they did before the idea of 'the standard' came along.
I too, have a closed flock with (likely) some Mareks going on. This is part of the reason why I don't see much point to the NPIP certification, testing for AI & pullorum is good -as far as it goes, but devastating diseases like LL and Mareks should also be tested for, imho.

I plan to get an Egyptian Fayoumi Rooster for the next generation of hybrids I make, due to their marek's resistance. If anybody knows of any MG resistant varieties, let me know please. If not I'll spend 10 years trying to make one lol.

 

[Chullicken]

It's good to hear from someone who thinks similarly. In the UK some of the top poultry folks are questioning the loss of utility to 'perfection'.
Since the idea of perfection has movable goalposts I find it a bit pointless really.
I believe that birds should be bred for resilience - that's what they did before the idea of 'the standard' came along.
I too, have a closed flock with (likely) some Mareks going on. This is part of the reason why I don't see much point to the NPIP certification, testing for AI & pullorum is good -as far as it goes, but devastating diseases like LL and Mareks should also be tested for, imho.[/QU
Very true. Putting contagion free flock testing aside, I feel it does have substantial value given the ease of shipping cross country. I also have no doubt there are breeders who breed to have a disease free flock, looks come only after that is achieved. But, when 'they' just use that as a doorway to achieving someone else's idea of perfection, that is where my main issue lies. All these type standards where written by someone else and their ideas. A person I doubt most have never met. So, let us achieve someone else's ideas.

 

[Folly's place]

In defense of the NPIP testing for pullorum, in the 'good old days' it was an awful disease that has rightfully been tested for and pretty much eliminated.
Having a flock that isn't infected with either Marek's disease, or MG, or MS, or whatever, is wonderful, and with good luck and paranoid biosecurity it can be achieved.
Once infected, that's another story, and then you are trying to have a flock of 'normal' birds, and breeding away for 'clinically affected' individuals. It's that, or give up on chickens and do ducks. They are nice, by the way...
I want healthy birds who do what they are designed to do, who look like the breeds they represent, and never mind 'show quality' except if it means correct structure and production as meant.
My two forays into 'SQ' chicks did not work out; I'd rather have home bred birds, or hatchery birds instead.
Mary