Lame hen, need advice - Marek's?

[Firefoot]

Hey all,

So I try not to jump to conclusions but this week I had to put one pullet down after a bout of what was suspected to be a spider bite but was actually tumors. I couldn't necropsy her but I am pretty comfortable with it perhaps being Marek's as they weren't vaccinated, it's been a hard year, etc.

That pullet was put down on Tuesday. I'd say probably Sunday or so, I noticed my Marans pullet being a bit lame on her left leg. It was not too bad and should got around and kept up so I didn't worry. She's my biggest pullet and I figured she landed wrong on it or maybe the baby roo finally started mounting them. But I put her into a crate on Wednesday morning because she was very very lame. She is basically not using her left leg. She can stand on it somewhat but has no coordination and loses her balance easily. It almost seems like she can't use the toes, as they always seem flat and unflexed even when she's trying to grab something. The whole leg is often stuck out in front of her.

She has a small bruise-looking thing near her top toe, but otherwise no marks, masses, or sores. The leg is not swollen, but it seems like it might be holding some heat. She eats and drinks like a champ, poops are normal looking, and she does manage to jump up to the top of the cat carrier inside her crate to roost.

So my questions are, first, if it is Marek's, what else should I look for? She doesn't seem neurologic to me at this point, just very lame and uncoordinated because she's a big bird moving on one leg.

If it's not Marek's, and just a lameness, what are the possible lamenesses and how should I treat them?

Is there a threshold of "it's gotten this bad so it'll never get better" with lamenesses? I spent a lot of time and energy on my other pullet and it took a lot out of me. I was hoping to have a bit of a break between the next intensive care chicken. Of course each case in different but if there's some kind of limit to what they can recover from or what they should deal with, I'd like to be prepared so I don't make her suffer alone longer than necessary.

I appreciate any advice! I will try to post some photos or a video.

 

[Firefoot]

I can’t seem to post the video but you can see how she holds the leg at rest. I should add she’s 21 weeks old.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi

I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this. I know how overwhelming it can be.

Video needs to be uploaded to a hosting site like You Tube or Vimeo and a link to it posted here.
Her age and the other recent death caused by tumours certainly makes Marek's highly likely but without testing we can only suspect. Having an adolescent male with raging hormones in with the pullets is a likely trigger for Marek's too.

If it is an injury, rest is probably the only treatment you can offer. Does she indicate any pain when you manipulate the leg..... I would expect that with an injury and a half a baby aspirin can help with pain although my personal feeling is that pain helps prevent further injury.
My experience with Marek's is that they don't indicate pain, just confusion and frustration at being unable to feel or coordinate their body normally. I've had some that were unable to stand (ie nest bound) for weeks and eventually recover to the point that they were able to free range with the flock after 3 months of supportive care, but still had a mild limp. One very quickly learned to hop everywhere. She never regained the use of the leg, but learned to lift it up out of the way after about a week of standing on her own toes and tripping over or trailing her knuckles on the ground..... I tried to help by making a shoe to keep her toes flat (the opposite problem to your girl) but it just made it more unwieldy for her and once she pulled it up out of the way, she got along great..... but she was a petite bird, so much easier for her to support her weight on one leg than your big girl.
Some sadly deteriorate with Marek's despite your best efforts. Once they lose interest in food, I euthanize them as they go downhill quickly after that but some will cull as soon as they suspect a bird is symptomatic of it and that is probably the most sensible approach.

I'm afraid you either take the decision to cull her now just in case, or you wait and see how she goes until you decide her quality of life does not warrant the level of support you are having to provide. Either way, getting a necropsy done when she does pass would be the sensible thing to do so you know for sure what you are dealing with and can plan and learn to manage it accordingly.

The thing that seemed to help my lame Marek's birds that recovered, was getting them outside in a large cage on grass in the sunshine where they could see other flock mates but in a safe environment. Obviously, this doesn't quite tie in with confining them to rest an injury and is one of the ways that having a positive diagnosis helps to manage symptomatic birds.

I'm sorry I can't give you any hard and fast rules or timescale guidance. There are so many variables, particularly with Marek's that you have to play it by ear and go with your gut instinct.

 

[Firefoot]

Hi

I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this. I know how overwhelming it can be.

Video needs to be uploaded to a hosting site like You Tube or Vimeo and a link to it posted here.
Her age and the other recent death caused by tumours certainly makes Marek's highly likely but without testing we can only suspect. Having an adolescent male with raging hormones in with the pullets is a likely trigger for Marek's too.

If it is an injury, rest is probably the only treatment you can offer. Does she indicate any pain when you manipulate the leg..... I would expect that with an injury and a half a baby aspirin can help with pain although my personal feeling is that pain helps prevent further injury.
My experience with Marek's is that they don't indicate pain, just confusion and frustration at being unable to feel or coordinate their body normally. I've had some that were unable to stand (ie nest bound) for weeks and eventually recover to the point that they were able to free range with the flock after 3 months of supportive care, but still had a mild limp. One very quickly learned to hop everywhere. She never regained the use of the leg, but learned to lift it up out of the way after about a week of standing on her own toes and tripping over or trailing her knuckles on the ground..... I tried to help by making a shoe to keep her toes flat (the opposite problem to your girl) but it just made it more unwieldy for her and once she pulled it up out of the way, she got along great..... but she was a petite bird, so much easier for her to support her weight on one leg than your big girl.
Some sadly deteriorate with Marek's despite your best efforts. Once they lose interest in food, I euthanize them as they go downhill quickly after that but some will cull as soon as they suspect a bird is symptomatic of it and that is probably the most sensible approach.

I'm afraid you either take the decision to cull her now just in case, or you wait and see how she goes until you decide her quality of life does not warrant the level of support you are having to provide. Either way, getting a necropsy done when she does pass would be the sensible thing to do so you know for sure what you are dealing with and can plan and learn to manage it accordingly.

The thing that seemed to help my lame Marek's birds that recovered, was getting them outside in a large cage on grass in the sunshine where they could see other flock mates but in a safe environment. Obviously, this doesn't quite tie in with confining them to rest an injury and is one of the ways that having a positive diagnosis helps to manage symptomatic birds.

I'm sorry I can't give you any hard and fast rules or timescale guidance. There are so many variables, particularly with Marek's that you have to play it by ear and go with your gut instinct.

Thanks so much for your reply. I sat with her a bit earlier this afternoon and noticed she has some sores on her bad leg. The bruise that was by her toe is gone. The sores popped up pretty quickly as I just thoroughly examined her legs last night around 9PM, and didn't notice them earlier this morning either. So, that is worrisome. And she does not show any signs of pain, it more seems like she just cannot use the leg. I can hold her and get her to grip my finger with the good leg, but the bad leg does nothing.

Video can be seen here:

I've attached some pictures of the leg sores and of each eye, as I thought her pupils were looking slightly misshapen. I know I'm really paranoid right now, though, too, so I appreciate a second opinion. Lastly, I included a picture of her standing which shows how she keeps her leg when she's not using it but also shows how lovely and huge she is. I am prepared to give her a shot but I'm not optimistic. If I want to get a necropsy, I need to take her in either next Monday or Friday, so I'll keep a close eye on her over the weekend.

And I would love for her to get out in the grass but would that be advisable if I think she is showing symptoms of Marek's? I don't really have anywhere that is separated from my other birds aside from the garage, which is where she is.

 

[rebrascora]

I'm sorry to say but from my experience the video looks very much like Marek's, but of course that doesn't mean it absolutely is, it just looks neurological.....like she is feeling for the ground but is not getting sensory response back to her brain. I don't think there is anything significant about her pupils. Yes there appears to be a very slight deviation but I have not made enough of a study of chickens eyes to know how much normal variation there is and it may just be camera angle that makes it look very slightly distorted.

I have not isolated my Marek's birds from the flock, taking the view that they have already been exposed but I am coming to the conclusion that it is important to reduce the reservoir of infected material in the coop where by far the highest risk of infection is likely to occur, so not housing the sick bird in the coop and using Virkon S to kill any infected material that may be lurking in there once you have removed the symptomatic bird is probably more important than allowing the birds some flock interaction out in the open where the virus can survive a shorter period of time and is less likely to infect other birds. Think how dusty it gets in the coop and how easy it is to inhale that dust, especially when birds are flapping their wings to get up and down from roost bars, then think of how much less dander dust there is outside, particularly if you free range. I have caged my Marek's birds on short grass in a small paddock and allowed the flock to free range around them. I have actively encouraged that in the past by scattering scratch in and around the cage, so that the sick birds feels like they are competing for food and foraging with the other chickens. Those are the situations where birds have showed most improvement with the disease, but it doesn't work for all of them. Since I don't cull Marek's impaired birds because I want to give them a chance to fight it, it has to come down to balancing the risk they pose to the rest of the flock with keeping them happy and providing the optimum chance for their recovery. From my experience it seems that this management that I am using is working reasonably well for me in my situastion since I am getting fewer birds die from the disease, but I cannot guarantee it will work for you and you need to make your own observations and assessments and think through it logically.
As regards how long to let your girl go, I twice set dates to euthanize my nest bound bird that took months to recover, but each time the day arrived and she was still bright eyed and keen to eat, I couldn't do it. She became a real pet and would half hobble, half fly across the yard when I called her when she was back free ranging and she had good quality of life then, which vindicated me supporting her all that time and watching her crawl until she learned to walk again. She really was a joy.

The damage to your girl's leg scales may be down to her pecking the leg in frustration rather than lesions developing. Having something else to occupy her mind by being outside on short grass (grass has wonderful therapeutic properties) when possible might help with that.