I have assisted a number of hatches, including my entire peachick hatch last week. EVERY one got malpositioned. The biggest thing with helping is slow and careful. That guide is how I learned to save them. It can be a hard call of when to step in, and I have been too late a number of times. 21 days is just a baseline. Some, often bantams, will hatch a bit sooner. If those air cells are that bad, I'd say chances are high they will need assist.
I have assisted hatches before but, not one with an air sac like this. When reading that it said if you had to pip a hole to only make a hole in the outer membrane. I have always tried to make a hole so I can see the beak. So if I have to do it should I open inner and outer membrane to expose the beak. I am scared if I don't expose the beak that it will still suffocate. If the outer membrane is open can it breath oxygen through the inner membrane? How do I know the difference between the inner membrane and outer membrane?
Yea I think I have helped to late on more then one occasion and lost a few that I believe could have been saved. That is why I am trying to get prepared this time because, by looking at the membranes it just doesn't look good.
If you don't mind maybe you can help walk me through this. I really don't want to loose these guys. To much money and time wrapped up in them. I have wanted them for so long, I would hate to loose them now.
Sorry, got side tracked and never finished my thoughts. What I do with those eggs, and I don't know if it really helps, or it just makes me feel better, but I always hatch them in slanted cartons and try to prop/position the egg so the aircell is in the most normal position, I don't like other chicks rolling them around. (I put the odd eggs in another incubator/hatcher) I keep the humidity high, I usually hatch around 65%, I try to keep the oversize aircell ones at 75% or more. My chicks tend to hatch in a pretty short time range, so if the normal eggs in the batch start pipping/hatching, and the odd ones are not doing anything, I will candle and start poking holes in the odd eggs by the time the first normal egg chicks are out or 24 hours after the first normal egg has pipped if I am at all uncertain ... usually when the air cells are that big there is plenty of space on the top of the egg to open them up. I pretty much follow the advise and instructions on the link above about assisted hatching about what steps to take from then on. Like I said, I expect about 50% hatch from the eggs with the really big or really badly shaped air cells at day 18, it has improved as I have gotten better or braver at helping. I am not sure that there is anything I could do to help some of the chicks survive once the aircell is really oversize, some of the chicks just don't develop right, and some of the chicks seem to die the last day or so before they should hatch. The ones with the more just badly shaped aircells seem to have a better chance at making it. Helping does give a good 2X as many live chicks as I used to get just letting the bad eggs try it on their own.
If you do the humidity up to 75 at hatch time can't that drowned them? I have heard so many different things. I have been told to keep it around 65 after lockdown and if you go higher then that it can cause drowning. I am still learning. Should I just make a hole in the shell or should I try to find the beak and make a hole in the membrane and expose the beak. I guess this is the part that worries me the most.
Yea, I believe in helping. Just doing it slowly. I have watched to many perfect chicks die just because, the shell was to hard or they were in bad positions.
Thanks for all the help guys. If ya'll don't mind sticking this out with me I would greatly appreciate if ya'll hang out with me throughout the hatch for support. We go in lockdown tomorrow.
The first thing I do when I highly suspect a chick in trouble is to poke a hole in the air cell portion of the cell with a sterilized tack near the beak or near where I think the beak ought to be. You shouldn't hit inner memberane in the air cell area.
I will explain how I saved my peachicks if that would help.
It was my first try with peas and I don't know what went wrong, but over a day and a half after they internally pipped- nothing. I was getting really scared for them. It turns out I was right. This was the problem with the 4 I saved:
..." Malposition 5 – Feet over head
A common malposition in which one foot or both feet become trapped between the head and the shell (Figure 20) and prevent the normal back thrusts of the head required to pip the eggshell. The feet of the embryo are also involved in the final rotation of the embryo as it cuts off the top of the eggshell to emerge from the egg. Thus, if the feet over head position has not prevented pipping of the shell, it may prevent the final rotation and escape of the embryo. This is usually the second most common malposition, representing about 20 per cent of the total malpositioned embryos ..."
The first thing I did was candle to see where the beak was, and then poked a small tack hole near to get some air to them. I put them back and waited the rest of the day and enlaged the holes slightly before I went to sleep. The next morning I carefully pulled back some shell to reveal some membrane and moistened it with Bactracin. It is an antibiotic ointment. I got that from the guide and its worked great for me. It moistens the membrane and keeps it moist better then adding water. You don't want any ointments with pain killer in it. I was able to keep an eye on the inner membrane and watch for the veins to receed. You should NEVER try and help a chick out until all of the eins receed, and even then you should give them a few more hours after it seems done to make sure that sack is fully absorbed. I was able to get two out the next evening and the other 2 the next morning. The others had their heads between their feet. I couldn't save those.
If you do the humidity up to 75 at hatch time can't that drowned them? I have heard so many different things. I have been told to keep it around 65 after lockdown and if you go higher then that it can cause drowning. I am still learning. Should I just make a hole in the shell or should I try to find the beak and make a hole in the membrane and expose the beak. I guess this is the part that worries me the most.
Yea, I believe in helping. Just doing it slowly. I have watched to many perfect chicks die just because, the shell was to hard or they were in bad positions.
These over sized air cell eggs (vs just misshapen ones) always seem too dry to me, and I don't want the air cell getting any bigger, ymmv, 75%+ on these seems to work better for me with what I am seeing, but it may be completely the wrong thing to do in your case, you have to go with what you see in front of you... normal eggs I hatch at 65%.
Sorry, wasn't clear on the hole part, I pretty much do what everyone else does, I candle and do my best to see where the chick is positioned. But, a lot of times it is in/near some part of the over sized air cell space so it is easiest for me to go through the egg and take off a part of shell there rather then just poking a small hole, so i can see better what the chick is doing, you do need to have higher humidity if you do that... I leave the main part of the inner membrane alone, especially if there are any veins visible, just poke a small hole by the head/beak. I prop the egg so the hole is up and a little to the side. That link and the person above with the peachicks explain beautifully what to do in general.
These over sized air cell chicks often seem weak in general to me and need more help than usual with taking off the shell, and they don't do as well. The weird shaped air cell chicks usually seem more normal, they are just positioned wrong or they can't get into a good position because of the cell shape, and they usually have a good chance at making it. I do think you will save a lot more chicks helping (slowly). Good luck with your chicks.
The first thing I do when I highly suspect a chick in trouble is to poke a hole in the air cell portion of the cell with a sterilized tack near the beak or near where I think the beak ought to be. You shouldn't hit inner memberane in the air cell area.
I will explain how I saved my peachicks if that would help.
It was my first try with peas and I don't know what went wrong, but over a day and a half after they internally pipped- nothing. I was getting really scared for them. It turns out I was right. This was the problem with the 4 I saved:
..." Malposition 5 – Feet over head
A common malposition in which one foot or both feet become trapped between the head and the shell (Figure 20) and prevent the normal back thrusts of the head required to pip the eggshell. The feet of the embryo are also involved in the final rotation of the embryo as it cuts off the top of the eggshell to emerge from the egg. Thus, if the feet over head position has not prevented pipping of the shell, it may prevent the final rotation and escape of the embryo. This is usually the second most common malposition, representing about 20 per cent of the total malpositioned embryos ..."
The first thing I did was candle to see where the beak was, and then poked a small tack hole near to get some air to them. I put them back and waited the rest of the day and enlaged the holes slightly before I went to sleep. The next morning I carefully pulled back some shell to reveal some membrane and moistened it with Bactracin. It is an antibiotic ointment. I got that from the guide and its worked great for me. It moistens the membrane and keeps it moist better then adding water. You don't want any ointments with pain killer in it. I was able to keep an eye on the inner membrane and watch for the veins to receed. You should NEVER try and help a chick out until all of the eins receed, and even then you should give them a few more hours after it seems done to make sure that sack is fully absorbed. I was able to get two out the next evening and the other 2 the next morning. The others had their heads between their feet. I couldn't save those.
How can you tell where the beak is??? Did you remove the membrane from over the beak or did you just make a pip in the shell? Okay so is the outer membrane against the shell and does it automatically break when you pip the shell? Is the inner membrane the membrane that is right next to the bird with the veins. Do I not break the inner membrane to expose the beak. If the outer membrane is broke but, the inner one is not can they breath??? Thanks for your help I guess I am just confused about how to tell what the inner and outer membrane is and when to break the inner membrane. I don't want to leave them in the inner membrane to long and them suffocate. I have a strong suspicion that help is gonna be required for the two. I am hoping they surprise me and pop out on their own.
These over sized air cell eggs (vs just misshapen ones) always seem too dry to me, and I don't want the air cell getting any bigger, ymmv, 75%+ on these seems to work better for me with what I am seeing, but it may be completely the wrong thing to do in your case, you have to go with what you see in front of you... normal eggs I hatch at 65%.
Sorry, wasn't clear on the hole part, I pretty much do what everyone else does, I candle and do my best to see where the chick is positioned. But, a lot of times it is in/near some part of the over sized air cell space so it is easiest for me to go through the egg and take off a part of shell there rather then just poking a small hole, so i can see better what the chick is doing, you do need to have higher humidity if you do that... I leave the main part of the inner membrane alone, especially if there are any veins visible, just poke a small hole by the head/beak. I prop the egg so the hole is up and a little to the side. That link and the person above with the peachicks explain beautifully what to do in general.
These over sized air cell chicks often seem weak in general to me and need more help than usual with taking off the shell, and they don't do as well. The weird shaped air cell chicks usually seem more normal, they are just positioned wrong or they can't get into a good position because of the cell shape, and they usually have a good chance at making it. I do think you will save a lot more chicks helping (slowly). Good luck with your chicks.
Well this is the update on the progress. I candled last night and honestly I can't imagine that the two will make it. I will do everything in my power if it does end up they need help but, honestly I have never seen air cells that big. I have seen irregular air cell but, just not that big. I can't imagine there is anyway with the air cell being that big that it is possible that they could be forming normally. I drew a pencil line on all of them when I candled last night so if I have to intervene I know where the air cell is. Still not really sure how to know where the beak is before pipping for them or when to break the inner membrane to uncover the beak.
Well this morning the one with the normal air sac and one of the ones with the abnormal air cell is rocking. So I will cross my fingers and wait for now.
If the one with the normal air cell is hatched or pretty far along I would think about helping the other ones and making a small hole. With the big air cells, if you can't tell what is going on when you candle, sometimes you can see when you take part of the shell off where the big air cell is, you can see how the chick sits under the inside membrane, and orient yourself from what you can see, and figure out where the head/beak should be, hopefully ... I don't think these chicks can really turn or move much, usually you are kind of looking at the top/back of the chick with the neck bent down and turned under the wing maybe ... if you can line up what you have with the pictures you should be able to figure out where to make a hole nearer the chicks head. You should be able to see the veins in the membrane pretty easily and get an idea of how far along the chick is from how they have shrunk. Like I said, I had not had as much luck with these chicks, they just do not seem to have been able to develop enough to live. Good luck with your guys.......
If the one with the normal air cell is hatched or pretty far along I would think about helping the other ones and making a small hole. With the big air cells, if you can't tell what is going on when you candle, sometimes you can see when you take part of the shell off where the big air cell is, you can see how the chick sits under the inside membrane, and orient yourself from what you can see, and figure out where the head/beak should be, hopefully ... I don't think these chicks can really turn or move much, usually you are kind of looking at the top/back of the chick with the neck bent down and turned under the wing maybe ... if you can line up what you have with the pictures you should be able to figure out where to make a hole nearer the chicks head. You should be able to see the veins in the membrane pretty easily and get an idea of how far along the chick is from how they have shrunk. Like I said, I had not had as much luck with these chicks, they just do not seem to have been able to develop enough to live. Good luck with your guys.......
