Larger, secondary run --will this be safe?

[Sunshine_Amy]

Hi everyone. I just joined, and introduced myself in the intro area. I'm ordering about 7 chicks and have some questions about my planned set up.

I get that I'll need a very predator proof coop, and plan to have an extremely secure primary run as well, secure enough to leave for a week in the summer. My question is about giving the birds access to a larger wooded area adjacent to their run, and how to do it safely without full Fort Knox enclosure. I think they would love scratching among the leaves, and I really want to give them more than the relative dry dust of their main run.

We have all of the usual New England predators: hawks, fisher cats and ermines (weasels), foxes, raccoons, possums, skunks, and even had a bear lumber through a few years back, though it's not a primary concern.

Here's what I'm picturing for a secondary run in the woods. Let me know what you think:
Premier 1 fencing (multiple electric wires running through laterally, along bottom edge, middle, and top)
Tree cover overhead to obscure hawk view and access, some brush as well mainly along one edge. The land is sloped, and the brush is on the top edge if that makes a difference. Bottom edge is more exposed.

I'm avoiding getting white birds. I'm mostly choosing predator aware breeds, though am sorely tempted by a Jubilee Orpington (she's JUST. SO. GORGEOUS. ) She's got excellent camouflage at least!

My neighbor has successfully kept her chickens outside for the last three years with just premier 1 fencing under zero tree coverage, but she's got goats in the mix, which she says deters the hawks. She says as long as people are around, it won't be an issue, and the kids and I are often outside. However we won't necessary be right where they are; we'll tend to be in the garden on the other side of their primary run and coop.

Does this sound like a set up worth trying/investing in? I'm considering netting as well (brand suggestions welcome if you're a fan), which seems like it would make it pretty darn safe, but it seems a pain, and I think it may be overkill?

Thoughts?

 

[3KillerBs]

Hi everyone. I just joined, and introduced myself in the intro area. I'm ordering about 7 chicks and have some questions about my planned set up.

I get that I'll need a very predator proof coop, and plan to have an extremely secure primary run as well, secure enough to leave for a week in the summer. My question is about giving the birds access to a larger wooded area adjacent to their run, and how to do it safely without full Fort Knox enclosure. I think they would love scratching among the leaves, and I really want to give them more than the relative dry dust of their main run.

We have all of the usual New England predators: hawks, fisher cats and ermines (weasels), foxes, raccoons, possums, skunks, and even had a bear lumber through a few years back, though it's not a primary concern.

Here's what I'm picturing for a secondary run in the woods. Let me know what you think:
Premier 1 fencing (multiple electric wires running through laterally, along bottom edge, middle, and top)
Tree cover overhead to obscure hawk view and access, some brush as well mainly along one edge. The land is sloped, and the brush is on the top edge if that makes a difference. Bottom edge is more exposed.

I'm avoiding getting white birds. I'm mostly choosing predator aware breeds, though am sorely tempted by a Jubilee Orpington (she's JUST. SO. GORGEOUS. ) She's got excellent camouflage at least!

My neighbor has successfully kept her chickens outside for the last three years with just premier 1 fencing under zero tree coverage, but she's got goats in the mix, which she says deters the hawks. She says as long as people are around, it won't be an issue, and the kids and I are often outside. However we won't necessary be right where they are; we'll tend to be in the garden on the other side of their primary run and coop.

Does this sound like a set up worth trying/investing in? I'm considering netting as well (brand suggestions welcome if you're a fan), which seems like it would make it pretty darn safe, but it seems a pain, and I think it may be overkill?

Thoughts?

There is always a tradeoff.

Before locking them up due to the avian flu threat I accepted the fact that I might lose birds to hawks -- which we see and hear constantly -- as the tradeoff for giving them their huge Premier1 electric net run.

You have to decide if you can bear to lose birds to predators or not in return for the satisfaction of giving them that extra space.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Your neighbor is mistaken. Hawks and goats mostly ignore one another. See my sig, below, for my current flock. Your neighbor is engaged in educated risk balancing. I suspect they have misjudged some risks, but as with any discussion of probability, there are no guarantees - you rolls your dice, and you takes your chances.

My own birds free range about 1.75 acres of mostly cleared pasture plus approx 3 acres of wooded area. I use an electric fence to deter ground predators, have selected largely predator aware breeds, and... I'm taking my chances. My experience is that hawks will routinely perch on branches below the tree tops, and that cover isn't a deterence, only netting/roofing is.

I'm culling my way towards camouflaged birds, but most predators are highly alert to movement - camo only gets you so far. Having places much lower to ground they can run to for safety is a big plus. Having birds alert to the air is a big plus - a good rooster - not because he will fight off the hawk - he can't get there fast enough, and likely doesn't stand a chance anyways - but because he can raise the call and alert the flock when a predator is spotted.

Birds big enough that your local hawks can't run off with them helps too - this is a balancing act. Nothing is running off with a Cx, but a Cx couldn't escape a paper bag floating on rising flood waters. They are that slow and ungainly. Also seemingly unaware of anything which isn't either food or water. But if you can get "flighty" birds which tend towards large size, and don't have a lot of fancy plumage, its a good goal.

and ultimately, birds the predators get are not birds that breed... I lose one or two a year. Our largest aerial predators are the red shoulder and red tailed hawk. Supposedly, some eagle, but I've never seen one. Owls, we have several, but no huge species. Vultures and other opportunistic carrion eaters only arrive once something else has done the deed.

 

[Sunshine_Amy]

@U_Stormcrow thank you, your thoughts make sense. I've mentioned my breed considerations in my intro post, here. What do you think? Not sure what you mean by avoiding fancy plumage. As in the stuff that gets in their eyes so they can't see, or the stuff that makes them easier to spot, or something else? ...thanks.

 

[3KillerBs]

@U_Stormcrow thank you, your thoughts make sense. I've mentioned my breed considerations in my intro post, here. What do you think? Not sure what you mean by avoiding fancy plumage. As in the stuff that gets in their eyes so they can't see, or the stuff that makes them easier to spot, or something else? ...thanks.

I see that you have Australorps on your list. I love mine -- they fit my mental image of "chicken" almost exactly.

@U_Stormcrow and I have almost exactly opposite ideas of what a chicken should look like in terms of color and feathering but it's been very interesting to follow his flock development as he's culled his way towards a chicken perfectly adapted to his conditions and system of management.

My advice to anyone new to chickens is this: Go Ahead! Pick the Prettiest Chickens!

 

[Sunshine_Amy]

Thanks, @3KillerBs, I appreciate the pretty chicken encouragement! I'll check out your link.

Oh, and yes, I get the educated risk factor. I know there are no guarantees.

With @U_Stormcrow 's input on hawks honing in on movement, probably I'm going to have to figure out some kind of netting through my trees. Maybe some deer netting I saw in 100' lengths at Costco last week. I welcome any other suggestions here.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Yes - big long tails, things that get in the eyes, not the sort of thing you want in a predator aware bird. Biologically, those developments in a species are more often related to mating, not surviving encounters with predators.

As to color and pattern, as @3KillerBs correctly observes, that has a lot to do with your environment. Mine isn't one where birds have historically been developed, so I'm working on mutts. Breeds, as a result, isn't something I've much looked into.

Otherwise, yes, your proposal sounds reasonable, and in some ways similar to my own - only I strung my own fencing - Premier is a superior product in many ways, but also out of budget to do a 1/3 mile run of fencing. and I'm not sure it would hold up long enough to deter one of our feral hogs - I'm near a swamp. After the FL Black Bear, they are our second largest predator, but they are more compact, more aggressive, and lead tusk first - which can quickly overcome a lot of defenses. before the electric has a chance to do its work. Not so much that a feral hog would go for my chickens (more likely, their feed - or my blackberries bushes) - but once it defeats the fence, the dogs and other pack canines are quick to follow.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Australorps seem a good choice. If you intend to free range constantly, particularly if you plan to give them access to part wooded areas where your predator protections must necessarily be less, you may wish to steer a little further from "docile" in your breed selections, though honestly, they tend to be the more attractive birds. I do NOT know availability, and you are seeking birds for much cooler climate than my own, but did you look at Redcaps, Sussex, and Welsummers? I see you did consider speckled sussex - another good choice. Maybe a Dominique? I really like my SLW - they have great personality, very smart, highly predator aware - my best air sentries. Lots I don't like about them, specific to my property, but there is much to recommend them, too.

 

[Sunshine_Amy]

Thanks, @U_Stormcrow, lots in common, though I'm minus the hogs, and working on a much smaller scale. We've got more woods than I'd been considering giving them access to, just because of the cost of Premier 1. I'd love to see what you're doing with the DIY fence.

I've felt like I'm at a crossroads with choosing my breeds based either on predator awareness or sweet cuddly friendliness. Looks are a factor for me personally, but with my kids being all about chicken cuddles, that's been the bigger challenge. How to get a sweet lap bird that won't be the most likely target of a predator after my kids have fallen in love with it.

I'm leaning towards netting at this point, and serious babysitting if they're outside that area ever. This is all very helpful, thanks very much for the input.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Our little dinosaurs aren't stupid - even flighty birds will come to lap if you are in the habit of feeding them there - it will just take longer to train them to the habit, and they will be a bet more "jumpy" to sudden distractions when there. Mine only need to see me move towards the feed shed and they swarm the gate, flow over it en masse, and surround my feet.

Frankly, its annoying.

The only other times I handle them is to get them to lift butts for egg collection, and when I carry one off for a freezer camp visit.

Whether or not you should risk the need to teach your children a life lesson in the cycle of prey and predation isn't something I have any right to suggest. Clearly, you've given this a lot of thought, I'm certain you will make an educated choice to do what you believe best for you, your family, and your birds.