LGD feeding arrangements? and UPDATE: goat surprise! on pg 4

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

I could be wrong, but I think for the OP and this situation this isn't about training the dog to accept other animals around him while food is present. Normally I don't tout a behavior management arrangement as the solution to a problem. In this case behavior management will work (IMO) the best because the dog is to do its job out of sight of the owners most of the time. I will say though, that getting the dog OK with human presence near food might be a really excellent direction to go in, but I would not take the time to generalize that to every other animal the dog encounters. NO owner will be present to train, reinforce and correct every time. So why bother? If a good managment solution can be achieved then it will be a happy, well-working, team.

Feed the dogs seperate, no free feeding, and make it routine (which is training in itself).

 

[zzGypsy]

Quote:
right, I understand what you're referring to now.
in herding dogs, this is what my coach calls the "natural" method of training... you put a command to the things the dog's doing anyway.
the other tactic is the "mechanical" method... you make the dog do what you want and put a command to it. make him do, as in push his butt to the ground for sit, or block his direction of circling the sheep to force him to go the other direction around.
the natural method selects from the dog's behavior, the mechanical method creates the behavior by manipulation, sometimes psychologically, sometimes phyisically.
thank you, that clarifies it completely.

 

[dainerra]

the thing is that you don't have to go completely "natural" in the usual sense. Usually, that refers to things like waiting for the dog to start to sit down and telling them "sit" or "good sit" so that they associate the action with the word. Natural behaviors are a good starting point.

I like that you can literally start with a behavior such as looking at an object and turn that into picking it up and carrying it across the room and putting it in a box. A good analogy might be a game of "hot/cold" where the dog tries to guess what you want with you giving helpful hints along the way.

 

[zzGypsy]

Quote:
OP here,
that's an important distinction.

so my original question was really about management, not training... that is, can I set up a physical feeding arrangement that allows each dog to eat separately, and free feed, and keep the goats out of the dog kibble.

general consensus seems to be 1) the goats WILL get into the kibble, and 2) free feeding is not a good idea because of the food agression.
regardless of 2), the 1) problem may not be solveable in a permanent way. all it takes is one to figure it out and that goat will teach the rest. not the answer I was hoping for, because what I really wanted was a dog-permeable, goat-excluding gate. but ok.

that leaves the training issue: managing food agression.

it took only 2 corrections for Turk to stop showing me any food agression behavior - after the first two corrections, he's never offered me any indication of objection to my being there. I have pressed him a bit - play with his food, hand feed him, remove him from his food or his food from him... nothing but soft ears, soft eyes, soft body language and a wagging tail. not submissive, but relaxed. however, the other dog Seka, the goats, the chickens, that's another issue. he's properly behaved if I'm near by, and less so if I'm further away. it's a behavior I'd like to change alltoghether because when he's over a 100 lbs, I can't have him pinning or snapping at baby goats and chickens if they get under his nose when he's found something he'd like to eat. if he does that, sooner or later there will be vet bills and dead livestock. uncontrolled, it may make him unsutiable for his job. so, while the original post was about a mechanical solution to avoid the situation during feeding, it still needs to be addressed.

 

[zzGypsy]

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useful analogy, thanks.

 

[dainerra]

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I have an idea. You can train him to not eat "found" food; I think this would be a good combination with the management feeding. There are different ways to train this, food laced with hot sauce/unpleasant flavors or remote training collars are 2 common ones. It's used often with guard dogs so that burglars can't slip them tainted meat.
I actually train all my dogs to do this since I hear so many stories about nutjobs targeting dog parks/hiking trails and leaving poison.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
I agree with you that with no permanent solution you will not have a proper working dog on your hands. You'll have a hinderance or a liability to your working farm. Of course NOT what you want in an LGD or any dog that does real work.

I do not believe that you will find a solution that "fixes" his food possessive behaviors without you being present for each feeding time. What you could do is choose a time to feed, evening or morning and take Turk out of the fence, while leaving the other dog inside and feed them separately. Or...you could put a small kennel (maybe 4x4 or 4x6) inside the livestock fence where you train him to go during feeding time, check your other animals while he's eating so its not a "dead" time for you. And let him out maybe 15-30 minutes later. You could probably work this into your routine with checking on your other animals/fencing/housing/feeding. That's the solution I would use if this were me.

As far as real training goes, you can absolutely train him to accept the other dog and animals durring feeding times -- provided you are there. It will take work and lots of generalizing on your part. But it is wholly possible. However, I would still have a management tool set in place, such as above, because we all know that things take our time and attention away from situations at any given time.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
I have an idea. You can train him to not eat "found" food; I think this would be a good combination with the management feeding. There are different ways to train this, food laced with hot sauce/unpleasant flavors or remote training collars are 2 common ones. It's used often with guard dogs so that burglars can't slip them tainted meat.
I actually train all my dogs to do this since I hear so many stories about nutjobs targeting dog parks/hiking trails and leaving poison.

I didn't catch the bolded portion when I first read zzGypsy's post.

My first question would be how often does he just find "stuff" that he likes to eat? Have you seen him find something edible and still display these behaviors?

My first thought if the answer is yes is: You might as well start over with a new dog. Sorry but that is outside your control and if his aggression doesn't lessen with time and maturity (which in some cases it does, as the dog learns the routine and lets go of insecurity, which is what aggressive-possession is..) -- well then you have a really useless dog on your hands. A dog you cannot trust is not going to be helpful in anyway, no matter how many times he chases off coyotes, or people. If he is a danger to what he also is supposed to protect he would be out of there, if he were mine. I actually had this situation with my GSD, so I am speaking from experience. He was a really wonderful dog, but didn't get along with my daughter, so no matter how useful, talented and wonderful he was to me -- he turned out to be a liability. He'd protect my home, do well in sport, but if he couldn't learn to not be afraid and aggressive with my daughter, then sadly, he didn't have a place with me.

Can you teach food refusal outside of your presence? Sure you can!! But how reliable will it be? It only takes one bite or one time for him to "forget" his manners outside of your view for him to kill one of your other animals.

 

[zzGypsy]

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how often? so far I haven't seen it happen. however, we've got moles, and rabbits and other pests, and sooner or later there will be a dead one in the pen. next time I find one, I'll leave it in the pen (without their observing me, so it can't be interpreted as something I've fed them) and see what happens, but right now it's just anticipation on my part, and trying to think things through to their logical conclusion.

dainerra's right, it's probably a good idea to teach them not to pick up found food, especially since they will be unsupervised once they're working on their own. I'll put that on my training list.

sometime in the next couple of weeks, I'll borrow my neighbor, who these pups know, and see if Turk's generalized the not being food agressive with me to include other people that he knows. I'll add the "goats in my dish means I get steak" to the training and work on reinforcing the behavior I want and we'll see if this can be effectively turned around.

I hadn't thought about food posessiveness being an insecurity thing but that makes sense. I've had a couple of extremely insecure rescue dogs, and been able to help them build enough confidence to get good pet homes, so I do know some things about working with that... I can add some confidence building to the plan as well. these pups are young, coming on 5 months, so there's plenty of time to work with them before their minds and personalities are set. if it turns out that Turk ultimately can't be trusted to be safe with the livestock, I've got a friend, currently dogless, who loves big dogs and would take him in a second.

I think we're making some progress... he and Seka were in the kennel aisle (where I hold them after they're done eating if I'm not ready to turn them back out to the goat pasture yet) and I came in with my rescue border collie... they were sniffing about in the litter for spilled kibble or interesting bird poop, and he and the border collie picked a couple of pieces up with thier noses inches apart, with no bad behavior. and I was far enough away that typically there'd be an issue. so maybe the lesson is begining to take. this is one that I'm going to have to be really, really sure of before we're done.

 

[watchdogps]

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Since baby goats and ducks cannot correct him, I think the associating other animals around his food with good things is the best way to go, but I'd still do mealtime feeding not free fed. The only thing I can think of that might allow free feeding is a dog door with an electronic collar key. I know they make them for cats but not sure if they make big-*ss dog ones. The other worry is that if the dogs both had one, they might enter the feeding area at the same time and in an enclosed space, they would be sure to fight.

The good association method may not cure it, but it will most certainly improve it. Also, wondering has he ever actually gone beyond growling over it? My chessie was horribly food aggressive from the start. She was so bad that she would charge you if you came within 8 feet of her (we suspect some neuro damage, she had severe sarcoptic mange when just afew weeks old and it was treated very aggressively, she has some other odd behaviors so this was very hard wired, not just a learned behavior). After trying various things, I found that she was far better when fed in the backyard loose, vs anywhere confined. After a while longer, I doscovered that if I was calm, I could take things from her. She was growling and snarling, but she allowed it. If I reacted to her noises, she would up the ante.
Just some food for thought.