Making your own feed

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

I thought so.

First, she needs to go back to grade school. She can't do algebra.

Second, I have no idea where she gets her nutrition info from, but her protein numbers for her raw ingredients are WAY WAY off. Possibly she got them from Garden Betty, another source of terrible feed info.

I don't know what is worse, the creator for posting BS information or the throngs of people that reshare it as if it is Gospel. Calling out this type of bad information needs to happen. Thank you @U_Stormcrow for sharing how bad this information is!

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

The as fed, if you use dry ingredients, typically drops things about 10%, since most things are dried to a moisture content of 10% or less.

and if you have a better source for current nutritional assays on various ingredients, I'd be happy to update my calculator. We can only work with the info available to us - and like any good calculator - garbage in, garbage out. I understand the limitations of it.

Of course, most of the home brew feed recipes are so bad that correcting for as fed only makes them a little more terrible.

The problem with using averages is that it is an average. The key to any feed formulation is having the proper nutrient loading. This is one of the first things you learn as a nutritionist in Grad School. I have several different loadings for corn and soybean meal depending on what part of the USA the feeding is being made. The SBM I use in Ohio is different than what I use for farmers in South Dakota.

Don't get me started on DDGS. That one is a beast to tackle, definitely not a one size fits all ingredient loading.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

"Trust, but Verify". Its not like the Internet doesn't make a wealth of information available to anyone with a little bit of time, and in interest in data, not entertainment.

Can't wait till I no longer need to use my cell phone to access it!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

The problem with using averages is that it is an average. The key to any feed formulation is having the proper nutrient loading. This is one of the first things you learn as a nutritionist in Grad School. I have several different loadings for corn and soybean meal depending on what part of the USA the feeding is being made. The SBM I use in Ohio is different than what I use for farmers in South Dakota.

Don't get me started on DDGS. That one is a beast to tackle, definitely not a one size fits all ingredient loading.

I don't dispute - but averages are the only data we've got to work from. Even updated averages would be welcome. Bulk ingredient bags don't bring nutrition labels. (and there are a few ingredients I've deliberately left out for lack of ANY good data or excess variation)

Sorry, I know my frustration is showing. I don't like knowingly producing flawed work, just don't have other, practical, alternatives available...

...and on that note, I'm headed to the family feed store, to find out what the mill is going to cost me this month! I've hungry goats, and need some more feed for my hatchlings.

 

[Faeshka]

No fight. Some few do make their own feed. Most efforts are nutritionally nferior, and often more expensive - but some have no choice, and a rare few can make it work in their conditons.

Finding a good recipe on the internet, however, isn't as easy as many might think. Likes and shares and follower count is no guarantee of good nutrition for your birds.

If you do want to look into doing it, and you don't know much about feeding chickens, I suggest you start with Justin Rhodes' recipe, and price that out for comparison with a decent, non-premium, off the shelf feed.

Is this the Justin Rhodes' recipe you're referring to? Is it suitable for chicks or just adults? Is there another protein source that isn't soy that could replace the fish meal? Even touching feed with soy gives me a very severe allergic reaction. I have similar issues with fish.

• 30% Corn
• 30% Wheat
• 20% Peas
• 10% Oats
• 10% Fish Meal
• 2% Poultry Nutri–Balancer
• Free Choice Kelp
• Free Choice Aragonite

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Is this the Justin Rhodes' recipe you're referring to? Is it suitable for chicks or just adults? Is there another protein source that isn't soy that could replace the fish meal? Even touching feed with soy gives me a very severe allergic reaction. I have similar issues with fish.

• 30% Corn
• 30% Wheat
• 20% Peas
• 10% Oats
• 10% Fish Meal
• 2% Poultry Nutri–Balancer
• Free Choice Kelp
• Free Choice Aragonite

That looks like the Rhodes' recipe, yes. and replacing the fish meal would require completely reformulating the thing.

I'll demonstrate real quick* (IMPORTANT CAVEATS BELOW) just how important the fish meal is to his recipe.

In my calculator, J RHodes recipe outputs as (theoretically):
20.05% Protein, 4.12% Fiber, 3.68% fat. Its AA profile for the big four are 0.4, 1.15, 0.74, 0.21 against targets of at least 0.35, 0.7, 0.6, 0.2. In short, its as good or better (apart from the fact that you don't know your ingredients are actually up to average) as most commercial feed bags.

Take away the fish meal?
(Theoretically) 13.9% Protein, 4.58% fiber, 2.87% fat, and the big four are now 0.2 (grossly deficient), 0.65 (borderline), 0.48 (low), 0.14 (deficient).

Yes, a full 1/3 of the protein, and most of the the amino acids, come from that 10% fish meal. It makes the rest of the recipe possible.

Now, you can attempt to juice the recipe with higher value ingredients.

"Naked" or hulled oats to slightly increase protein and reduce fiber. You can use hard red winter wheat instead of soft wheat to again increase protein. You can't add more peas, they are already present in quantitity greater than the industry recommends (as is the fish meal, honestly). You could use alfalfa meal, if you can find it in good quality, but its chock full of the same chemicals that most try to avoid when they cut soy from their diet. You can cut back on the corn, increasing costs.

20 Alfalfa meal, 20 corn, 10 dehulled oats, 30 hard wheat, 20 winter peas and your numbers are more like (theoretically) 16.6, 8.74, 2.75, 0.24 (deficient), 0.77 (fine), 0.59 (close enough), 0.18 (near there)

At this point, we hardly resemble the Rhodes recipe, we are inferior to most everything on the shelf, we mostly haven't avoided the things that make people avoid soy, and we've greatly increased our price per pound.

THAT is why I don't recommend people try this at home. Also, IMPORTANT CAVEAT BELOW.

*understand, these are AVERAGES obtained from a feed website, not an assay of the ingredients you are actually using. The nutrition label on the bag (if there is one) always trumps the averages. Be aware also that some common feed sources are now routinely lower than this published average as crops have changed, AND that I'm offering a theoretical value, not "as fed" - again for speed. "As fed" is usually about 10% +/- less nutrition than this calculates, for feed mixes based on dried ingredients.

/edit and his recipe is appropriate for all ages. Chicks actually have higher nutritional requirements - and are more sensative to dietary deficiencies and imbalances - than adult birds are.

 

[SandyRiverChick]

I can tell you from experience that these easy to follow You Tube recipes, are dangerous at best. I actually REALLY LIKE Becky from "Becky's homestead." And she has a "recipe" almost identical to this one in the OP. Most people viewing these recipes like me, don't have a food science, nutrition, chemistry, biology, dietetics, or biochemistry degree, they just think that it may actually be far superior to a simple bag of crumble. It sure does LOOK and sound better.

WELL, I followed the recipe and started feeding it to my flock of 9. First thing I noticed, they don't love oats. They pick out what they like and indeed you have alot of rolled oat waste. To bad I don't have a horse. THEN their health suffered. I noticed combs went from beautiful red to pale pink. Over the winter I lost 2. One I chalked up to old age, the other had been a strange runt her whole life. Then they went through 2 back to back dramatic molts and stopped laying eggs. I should have woken up sooner but it did finally occur to me that the real change for them wasn't the season or the runtiness, it was the change in feed. They've fully recovered since I went back to good ole Layer crumble with this stuff only as a treat/scratch and I do add a little quality puppy kibble and tuna when they need more protein in winter.

Again, just my experience and lesson learned that I should stick with my actual skills and get off You Tube.

 

[3KillerBs]

They pick out what they like

Which is a good reason to serve any whole-grain feed -- even a commercial mix with the correct nutritional balance -- fermented or, at least, wet.

 

[Faeshka]

That looks like the Rhodes' recipe, yes. and replacing the fish meal would require completely reformulating the thing.

I'll demonstrate real quick* (IMPORTANT CAVEATS BELOW) just how important the fish meal is to his recipe.

In my calculator, J RHodes recipe outputs as (theoretically):
20.05% Protein, 4.12% Fiber, 3.68% fat. Its AA profile for the big four are 0.4, 1.15, 0.74, 0.21 against targets of at least 0.35, 0.7, 0.6, 0.2. In short, its as good or better (apart from the fact that you don't know your ingredients are actually up to average) as most commercial feed bags.

Take away the fish meal?
(Theoretically) 13.9% Protein, 4.58% fiber, 2.87% fat, and the big four are now 0.2 (grossly deficient), 0.65 (borderline), 0.48 (low), 0.14 (deficient).

Yes, a full 1/3 of the protein, and most of the the amino acids, come from that 10% fish meal. It makes the rest of the recipe possible.

Now, you can attempt to juice the recipe with higher value ingredients.

"Naked" or hulled oats to slightly increase protein and reduce fiber. You can use hard red winter wheat instead of soft wheat to again increase protein. You can't add more peas, they are already present in quantitity greater than the industry recommends (as is the fish meal, honestly). You could use alfalfa meal, if you can find it in good quality, but its chock full of the same chemicals that most try to avoid when they cut soy from their diet. You can cut back on the corn, increasing costs.

20 Alfalfa meal, 20 corn, 10 dehulled oats, 30 hard wheat, 20 winter peas and your numbers are more like (theoretically) 16.6, 8.74, 2.75, 0.24 (deficient), 0.77 (fine), 0.59 (close enough), 0.18 (near there)

At this point, we hardly resemble the Rhodes recipe, we are inferior to most everything on the shelf, we mostly haven't avoided the things that make people avoid soy, and we've greatly increased our price per pound.

THAT is why I don't recommend people try this at home. Also, IMPORTANT CAVEAT BELOW.

*understand, these are AVERAGES obtained from a feed website, not an assay of the ingredients you are actually using. The nutrition label on the bag (if there is one) always trumps the averages. Be aware also that some common feed sources are now routinely lower than this published average as crops have changed, AND that I'm offering a theoretical value, not "as fed" - again for speed. "As fed" is usually about 10% +/- less nutrition than this calculates, for feed mixes based on dried ingredients.

/edit and his recipe is appropriate for all ages. Chicks actually have higher nutritional requirements - and are more sensative to dietary deficiencies and imbalances - than adult birds are.

Thanks. I'm more thinking down the road for adults. I saw freeze dried worms or bugs or something like that at Tractor Supply. My internet is ridiculously slow and I can't find them on their website. I was thinking of substituting something like that for the fish meal. I just came across 2 research studies where the researchers concluded that earthworm meal could substitute for fish or soybean meal. I'm just not quite sure how subbing in earthworm meal would affect the Rhodes recipe. Thoughts?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thanks. I'm more thinking down the road for adults. I saw freeze dried worms or bugs or something like that at Tractor Supply. My internet is ridiculously slow and I can't find them on their website. I was thinking of substituting something like that for the fish meal. I just came across 2 research studies where the researchers concluded that earthworm meal could substitute for fish or soybean meal. I'm just not quite sure how subbing in earthworm meal would affect the Rhodes recipe. Thoughts?

I think that those bug sources are all massively high fat, more than enough to make their *effective* use as a protein suppliment something that I personally question. Also, pricey. Very pricey.

Target numbers for chickens (depending upon age, breed, purpose) are usually given somewhere in the neighborhood of 16-20% protein, 3.5% fat +/-, 3.5% fiber +/-. Fat levels a bit higher for waterfowl and for "finishing" a meat bird to table weight.

BSFL (dried) are usually given nutrition labels in the range of 45% protein+/-, and 30-45%+ fat. Meaning at just 10% of the total poultry diet, they already represent all the target fat, but add just 4.5% to the total protein of the final mix.

The various grains around which most poultry diets are based can run anythere from 8-12% protein, so your 10% BSFL addition won't get you to targets, and they bring fat of their own. To juice up the recipe the rest of the way, most reach for seeds. High protein, very high fat - only there no longer any "room" in the recipe for all that fat. Part of why most home brew recipes have fat levels at some multiple of target numbers - and excess fat kills birds.

Those are my initial thoughts. You can sub in the numbers from other bugs, get largely similar results.