Many questions need many answers

[barngem]

Ok you long time flocksters are probably sick of the newbie questions but here they go anyway.

1) Worming, do you always do it? If so how often? With what? What about your laying hens and the eggs after worming? 2) Unmedicated grower vs medicated grower. I chose unmedicated because I have been influenced by my desire to try to live as Organic as possible.

3) When my chicks are old enough, should I quarenteen them before introducing to my other chickens. They are Hatchery hatched babies[ Hope not I had them in the pen already.]

4) My bantam hen has long nails on her feet, she is a scratcher but her nails are really long like 1/2" doesnt seem to bother her but should I trim them?

5) What type of Vitamins for grown chickens if any?
Mine free range about 3 hours a day. I have a roo and a hen and they get laying mash, scratch and I have grit and oyster shell out for my hen. They also get lettuce, whole wheat bread, watermellon, tomatoes, alfalfa not all at once and not every day but usually one or more of those things a couple times a week.

6) I dont know how old my hen is but I have had her for 2 years. She has layed an egg a day the whole time I had her except when she went broody and I gave her an egg to set that was fertile. After the hatch she started laying again up until December, then she layed a couple eggs on different occasions then stop laying all together. Eggs were always nice and of good quality. She layed one soft one once an one tiny one but that was all in two years that were abnormal. She has not layed since February. . She is healthy and active so I would not say she has any problem. She is molting now so I figured that might hold her up. Just wondering if she might be getting old? Any thoughts?

7) Can DE be put in a tub for them to dust in or would that be hard on their resp. System since it is abrasive (even food grade is somewhat).

8) Electrolytes- are there special ones for chickens or can they have things like the pediasure that is for kids.

9) Probiotics- is plain yogurt enough? If not what kind is recommended. Should I give them after worming?

10) I like to do things as close to natural and/or Organic as possible. I feel that is the best way for animals and humans. So any input of natural remedies and/or chemical free way is great. I understand that sometimes we have to use medications and things because they just work better but I am of the mind that you go to the least invasive first then step it up a notch if needed. I hate pesticides and chemicals so I prefer to avoid them when possible.
Thanks for putting up with the newbies

 

[meriruka]

Here's my two cents.........

1) I worm if I see orange/ yellow foamy poo, otherwise , no.
2)Medicated. I feel about medicated feed the same way I do about vaccinating babies, not thrilled about it, but for the best in the long run.
3) I think by the time they are old enough to put with the others, you'd already be seeing signs of illness if there is any.
4) Trimming them might make her more comfortable. Just take tiny bits off at a time so you don't nick the "quick"
5)Sounds like a good diet. Go easy on the scratch though, it's like junk food.........
I only give poultry vitamins to "under the weather" birds to give them a boost.
6)Both moulting & age will slow down egg production. Could be both in your hen.
7) I would not put straight DE in a tub for dusting. Definitely could cause respiratory problems. I'd use maybe sand with a little bit of DE mixed in.
8) They sell electrolytes for poultry, I try not to use human stuff, even children's, but I guess you could in a pinch.
9) Plain yoghurt is fine. Don't used the flavored stuff. Yes, it would probably help after worming.
10) A lot of people put DE in the chicken feed to prevent worms.
I can't bring myself to do it, because DE is sharp, that's how it kills pests, but I just don't think my chickens should be routinely swallowing sharp stuff, it just can't be good for delicate tissues.

Hope this helps!

 

[barngem]

Thank you that all helps a great deal

 

[kathyinmo]

I am a newbie to the chicken world and I think you have great questions. I advise you to PM or email ThreeHorses for advise. She is the greatest, and you will get great, easy to understand answers and advise.

 

[threehorses]

Thanks, Kathyinmo! That's very nice of you to say.

OK, let's give this a shot. I'm in bold.

Ok you long time flocksters are probably sick of the newbie questions but here they go anyway. Pshh never tire of "newbie" questions - there's nothing wrong with knowing there's more to learn. "Oldies" should always feel the same!

1) Worming, do you always do it? If so how often? With what? What about your laying hens and the eggs after worming?


While I am not a big believer in chemicals where not needed, I do believe in worming twice a year. The reason is that you can't depend on finding worms in the droppings to let you know whether or not there are worms. Worms don't want to leave the intestines, etc. They stay there and just shed their eggs. If you find worms, then often there are a lot more - and then they're up there stealing food, making scars on the digestive tract (another place where food can't be absorbed), irritating the cecum and leaving the bird more susceptible to illness, etc etc etc.

To me, the light stress of worming twice a year wayyy outweighs the stress of all of the above.

Now, you don't have to worm if you do a fecal egg check twice yearly and there is no result. Fecal egg counts are way more accurate than even fecals, which could be misleading as the parasites themselves aren't often shed.

I worm first time at about 4-5 months (my babies usually being off the ground for a while, then not on ground long before they're that age). With those babies, I worm first time with ivermectin pour-on cattle wormer.

My adults I worm twice annually with ivermectin or, if I suspect tapeworms, a different very broad spectrum wormer.

However, if I have a chicken that has gone over 6 months without worming, or is new to me, I always use Wazine 17 (piperazine 17% solution) in water for the first worming.

The reason is that unless you do a fecal egg count, you really don't know how many worms are in there. Wazine doesn't kill larvae - only adults. It's a weaker wormer that has to be repeated - and that's GOOD in this case. Worming a chicken with a heavy parasite load sometimes can throw the chicken into shock, or clog them as the paralyzed parasites try to leave their system if you kill EVERYTHING in the first go-round.

So I use wazine in the water for those birds first. Don't eat their eggs for 2 weeks. Then worm with ivermectin as a follow up. The ivermectin DOES paralyze AND kill their larvae and the adults. That way the birds aren't getting reinfected as the larvae progress into adults, but the pre-wormer with wazine gets the worm count down a bit to help the health of the bird.




2) Unmedicated grower vs medicated grower. I chose unmedicated because I have been influenced by my desire to try to live as Organic as possible.

If you're a beginner, medicated for 6 weeks. Then unmedicated grower. THey have the rest of their life to be organic, but they must make it through their first 6 weeks first.

To me, a "beginner" has raised less than a half dozen batches of chicks from day one.

Organic starter is fine - BUT you have to know how to tell what cocci looks like before it ever gets even near having blood. You have to know what causes cocci to bloom, what conditions, and how to avoid them.

The way organics work is that they contain live probiotics (bacteria) instead of meds. This is great, and it's a program I use from day one even though I usually use medicated feeds. But the live bacteria don't always survive in these feeds. So you have to do your own, and should anyway. I give Probios brand dispersible powder (which is apparently used in some organic feeds as their probiotic package) from day 3 or whenever the babies start eating, weekly, through week 6. Then less often as needed.

You should give it daily at the first sign of diarrhea.

But honestly - amprolium is NOT an antibiotic and it will not cause antibiotic resistance in humans or carry over in the body. It's the least problematic of all chemicals that your birds will ever see. I say it's worth it for the first few weeks to avoid having to end up treating with a heavier chemical later.

So - medicated. For now. Til you're an "old hand".

3) When my chicks are old enough, should I quarenteen them before introducing to my other chickens. They are Hatchery hatched babies[ Hope not I had them in the pen already.]

Yes, always. Read the posts on culling for MG to remind yourself why guarantines are necessary. Birds under 5 months are still developing their immune systems. They're still depending on their immunizations, but immunizations fail if they're too heavily challenged. Established flocks are walking immune-challengers. So you don't want to mess up what the hatcheries did for you. Introduce like ages before 5 months after at least a month quarantine. Otherwise, wait til 5 months or older to introduce into an established flock.

4) My bantam hen has long nails on her feet, she is a scratcher but her nails are really long like 1/2" doesnt seem to bother her but should I trim them? I do - with nail clippers. Actually, rabbit and cat nail clippers are the best for it. Trim conservatively and keep a blood-stopper in your pocket. In fact, I have a baby I need to cut the nails on - he's a scratcher, too, and my arms sure show it!

5) What type of Vitamins for grown chickens if any?
Mine free range about 3 hours a day. I have a roo and a hen and they get laying mash, scratch and I have grit and oyster shell out for my hen. They also get lettuce, whole wheat bread, watermellon, tomatoes, alfalfa not all at once and not every day but usually one or more of those things a couple times a week.

The complete feed that should comprise 95% of your chickens' diet 'should' take care of their vitamin and mineral needs if it's fresh food (smell it - it should smell strongly of fresh ingredients), kept in the dark in a cool place and fed within 6 weeks. You may do that - your feedstore may not. So sometimes light deficiencies develop. When that happens, I spot supplement with something you give in the FEED, not the water. There's a reason vitamins come in dark bottles - because they quickly degrade in light (and in waterers). So I give drops via the beak, or in a quickly eaten damp mash given as their first meal of the day.

One exception is calcium/D3. I do always give oyster shell free choice to my birds over 5 months old (or earlier if the pullets' combs start to fatten and turn red earlier). If i'm breeding them, I will maybe use fortified wheat germ oil misted on the top of their food weekly or so. But usually I just lean on their feed. I will also give yogurt weekly for new layers or heavy layers because of the D3 in it - helps calcium absorb. So you're good on that!

Scratch is a treat grain designed to get them to 'scratch' through their bedding to aerate it and keep the birds interested in something other than one another's feathers. That and the other treats should comprise less than 5-10% of their total diet. If you do that, they should be fine as treats and keep them tame and interested in you!

If you want to use grains to keep a sort of grain condition on them I'd highly recommend whole oats. They're higher protein than any corn or scratch (10-11% versus scratch's 8-9%), they're less prone to alfatoxins than the scratch, the grains aren't as cheap (milo - the main component of scratch - is one of the cheapest and least nutritious grains available - but birds love it so it serves it's designed purpose). The hulls on whole grains also encourage the beneficial bacteria of the gut to bloom and produce more good enzymes to make the chicken's diet more absorbable and useable! (Get more bang for your buck.) You can offer a bit of that free choice for good condition without the excess fat that can inhibit laying.

The reason for not many grains is that complete feeds are designed to have a 2:1 calhos balance. Or greater amounts of calcium (because they're really needed) in laying foods. Grains, on the other hand, are high in phos. If you give more grains, you change the balance of the diet. Oyster shell is made to make up for the greater calcium need of some birds without disturbing the phos balance. Birds RARELY need more phos, often need less. So that's why 10% or less should be fed.

If they get too much phos (or too little D3) they will literally take the calcium otu of their own bones to make the balance correct. They can literally lose a whole bone, and then their beaks can even become soft. Before that, hens usually start laying soft shelled eggs and prolapsing - so we just don't want to get that far.


6) I dont know how old my hen is but I have had her for 2 years. She has layed an egg a day the whole time I had her except when she went broody and I gave her an egg to set that was fertile. After the hatch she started laying again up until December, then she layed a couple eggs on different occasions then stop laying all together. Eggs were always nice and of good quality. She layed one soft one once an one tiny one but that was all in two years that were abnormal. She has not layed since February. . She is healthy and active so I would not say she has any problem. She is molting now so I figured that might hold her up. Just wondering if she might be getting old? Any thoughts?

The occassional bad egg is fine. At two , her laying will decrease. Some even stop. That's another important time to make sure her calhos balance and proteins are all in good order in her diet. And yes - they don't lay while they molt. I wouldn't worry about her. Just keep up with her diet, and enjoy the eggs you do get. If you see another soft shell egg, do the yogurt daily for a week and make sure she's interested in her oyster shell, etc.

7) Can DE be put in a tub for them to dust in or would that be hard on their resp. System since it is abrasive (even food grade is somewhat).

DE is best mixed with other things - like their dust bath. If you want, try putting some "play sand" from the hardware store and a little DE into a tub. That would be wonderful! Straight, it's too hard on their respiratory systems since it's dustier than sand or dirt.

8) Electrolytes- are there special ones for chickens or can they have things like the pediasure that is for kids.

You can feed pedialyte in a pinch. I buy generic. You can also use gatorade in a pinch. Most birds don't need electrolytes unless they're stressed or dehydrated. If you want to provide them in summer heat, give the usual amount of fresh clean water they need for the day and then some - and give a second container with electrolyte water. That way as they drink more during the day, they don't get too much salt while trying to cool themselves with water. They have a choice.

In ill birds who aren't drinking much, I use only electrolyte water and remove it to plain water as fast as I can.

I am a big believer in "clean water only please" as most packaged water additives tend to encourage bad bacteria and "biofilm" in the water. If I want to add some potassium for energy, I use organic apple cider vinegar occassionally (not daily myself) at a rate of 1 teaspoon per gallon of water. The reason I suggest organic isn't because of the philosophy (though I believe in the philosophy) but because the organic is made by bacteria, not chemically, and still has living bacteria added. (The "mother" - the gunk in the bottom.) Those bacteria are also beneficial to chickens. The pH of that OACV helps realign the pH of the gut to make it good for good bacteria and unfriendly for bad bacteria and especially for fungi! It's great stuff. It also helps prevent biofilm and bacteria in the water, but again I don't use it daily.



9) Probiotics- is plain yogurt enough? If not what kind is recommended. Should I give them after worming?

Plain yogurt is enough. Probios brand dispersible powder or acidophilus capsules/tablets can be used during medication while yogurt can't be used if you're medicating with something whose active ingredient ends with -mycine or -cycline. Probios is very economically wonderful at $8 per small bottle at 1/4t per bird dosage. It lasts ages if you keep it in the fridge. It's also easier to give 1/4t than 1 teaspoon of yogurt if they don't like yogurt or won't eat. (Mine LOVE yogurt - so I use either).

Yes, always give probiotics during stress, weekly during heavy laying, during medication (just the right kind) and every other day two weeks afterwards. You can give it as often as you want to otherwise. Just don't give huge amounts of yogurt as too much of anything is never a good thing - except love.

About 1 tablespoon per adult bird is a good serving size.

10) I like to do things as close to natural and/or Organic as possible.

So do I! I used to be made fun of for my yogurt and DE suggestions by the old timers years ago. I just learned when I can't get away with using natural. Most times I try to.

I feel that is the best way for animals and humans. So any input of natural remedies and/or chemical free way is great. I understand that sometimes we have to use medications and things because they just work better but I am of the mind that you go to the least invasive first then step it up a notch if needed.

Anything I ever recommend will be aimed at letting the bird's natural immunities and system do what it can first if at all possible. You will read me telling people again and again to give their birds sunshine, lots of air, and then some sort of "glop" if sick. I avoid antibiotics until it's unavoidable, and then I'm an absolute stickler about using the right thing if possible. Most things that we see in birds can be handled with a change of environment, tweaking their keeping and diet, etc. But there are a few times when I say "well you have to do this chemically" - like with mites, or true coccidiosis. But I try to avoid it if at all possible.

I hate pesticides and chemicals so I prefer to avoid them when possible.
Thanks for putting up with the newbies

Silly you - it's the "newbies" that become the "oldies" that keep the fancy alive! Personally, I love 'newbies" because even though I've had poultry or exotic birds all of my life, I still learn something new every day - and that's the way I intend to be for the rest of my life.

So I guess I'm an oldie-newbie.

Mind if I join you?

 

[3KillerBs]

Its not my thread, but I've been reading enthusiastically and wanted to thank the helpful people who put up with all the "stupid" questions we newbies ask.

 

[greyhorsewoman]

A lot of people put DE in the chicken feed to prevent worms.
I can't bring myself to do it, because DE is sharp, that's how it kills pests, but I just don't think my chickens should be routinely swallowing sharp stuff, it just can't be good for delicate tissues.

A lot of animals (and people) ingest DE (food grade) and feel it is beneficial. I sprinkle it periodically on my chicken food and dogs food. Recently, I decided to try it myself (after reading the testimonials on many sites). It's supposed to act as a 'detox' for your body, for one thing.​

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
A lot of animals (and people) ingest DE (food grade) and feel it is beneficial. I sprinkle it periodically on my chicken food and dogs food. Recently, I decided to try it myself (after reading the testimonials on many sites). It's supposed to act as a 'detox' for your body, for one thing.

Actually, your birds are already eating it as it's often used in grains to keep bug counts down.

Weird, huh?

That being said, I don't feel it prevents parasites at all. But I do feel it possibly takes a toll on the most delicate of their larvae. I used to feed it daily to my birds. I don't any more, but see about the same results myself. I just do the twice a year worming (much like I did even when I used DE). So really it's personal choice.

The thing is to always use human grade, which is the safe version. You never want to use pool grade or garden grade DE, even in their dust baths.

 

[trilyn]

Threehorses-you rock!

I just copied and pasted all that info into my "chickie health" file. You really ought to write a book or at the very least have a few byc pages designated for worming, sour crop, etc. Your advice is always so clear and concise and you're such an awesome oldie-newbie for helping all of us!! lol

 

[damselfish]

Introduce like ages before 5 months after at least a month quarantine.

I'm a little confused on #3...if they came from a hatchery, and were brooded separately from the main flock for four weeks or so, does that count as quarantine?

Thank you threehorses, this is great info!​