Marans Genetics in BCM Hens

[Debbi]

Quote:
No. I believe if you breed the so called black hen, to a BCM roo, you will see at least some copper leakage coming from the male, as he has it (copper gene) and will pass it on. You may not see it if you only hatch a small amount of chicks, or, they may all have some. Ahhh, genes! Hard to find, or so I hear, a REAL, solid black bird without the hidden copper gene.

 

[tadkerson]

Quote:
Genetics 101

The black copper marans should be birchen at the E locus. The copper color in the male and females is caused by a recessive sex linked gene called gold. Females will have one gold gene (hemizygous) and males will carry two gold genes (homozygous). Restrictors like dark brown and the columbian gene can effect the color produced by the gold gene. The columbian gene will change the copper color to a ginger or orange gold color- dark brown will change the copper to a burnt orange color or brownish color.

The melanotic gene, when homozygous ( two melanotic genes), will add black to the pyle zone of males and will add black to the neck and back of a female. This action will most of the time produce a self black or solid black fowl. The gold gene (copper color) in the male and female will be inhibited by the melanotic gene so no red pigments are produced.

When heterozygous (one melanotic gene and one non melanotic gene), the melanotic will add black to the male ( darker color than normal) and darken the back and hackles of a female. The melanotic gene does not act the same on every E locus but is consistent on birchen and extended black.

It is my understanding, that the problem with the marans is that some are extended black at the E locus and some also carry wheaten. So you have birds that can be any number of E locus combinations of birchen, extended black and wheaten. As stated earlier, the birds should only be birchen at the E locus. Different combinations at the E locus can mimic false genotypes. For example, A birchen/wheaten bird may look like a birchen bird that is columbian restricted.

Another problem is that some may also carry restrictors like the columbian gene. If heterozygous, the columbian gene has a greater effect upon males than females- in this case males will show more copper on their breast than the females- also in females they will show more copper than usual on their backs.

Males that have non black breasts are columbian or dark brown restricted. If they pass one of these genes on to their female offspring the birds will most likely have backs that express non black- the backs will tend to be red stippled (mossy).

The problem with the birchen gene is that it has variable expression in females- it is not unusual for the backs of females to express red/copper/buff/lemon stippling on a black background (mossy). This is the nature of the gene. This may be true in pullets but as the pullet ages the red/copper stippling can give way to a black back. This is something the marans breeders may want to watch for in their birds. It may be best to show hens and not pullets.

There is no gene that I know of that will add black to the back of a female and not add black to the hackles. Both melanotic and charcoal add black to the hackles and back.
This is the problem.

I believe to get the proper color in males and females, double pen mating may work to solve the problem. I have not personally worked with marans but have consulted with several black copper marans breeders.

For those that are breeding black copper marans, I would suggest they concentrate on breeding for SOP color in females or SOP color for males. Concentrate on one sex. The males should be the easy to breed, it is the females that will be a challenge.

I have a hypothesis, ( I have no data that would support my hypothesis), that females that are heterozygous at the E locus, extended black and birchen, are the birds that
would have black backs ( no mossy problems)with copper in their hackles.


Sometimes white feathers on a genetically black bird are caused by damage to a feather follicle or some kind of cellular malfunction at the follicle. The black pigment can not get to the growing feather so no color is in the feather. When the bird molts, a damaged follicle will grow in a white feather but a cellular problem may be solved and the feather comes in black.

The white in the wing and tail is definitely a genetic thing. Birds that are mottled ( recessive autosomal) have white feathers in the tail and primaries. Maybe when heterozygous sometimes the white does not show on the body and is confined to specific feather tracks. No data to support this hypothesis-just an idea.


The color of a birds shanks and bill can tell you about the E locus a bird carries Extended black = black (in non barred birds), birchen= slate or light slate, if a bird carries wheaten this gene will tend to make the legs a lighter color.



Tim

 

[Debbi]

Quote:
Genetics 101

The black copper marans should be birchen at the E locus. The copper color in the male and females is caused by a recessive sex linked gene called gold. Females will have one gold gene (hemizygous) and males will carry two gold genes (homozygous). Restrictors like dark brown and the columbian gene can effect the color produced by the gold gene. The columbian gene will change the copper color to a ginger or orange gold color- dark brown will change the copper to a burnt orange color or brownish color.

The melanotic gene, when homozygous ( two melanotic genes), will add black to the pyle zone of males and will add black to the neck and back of a female. This action will most of the time produce a self black or solid black fowl. The gold gene (copper color) in the male and female will be inhibited by the melanotic gene so no red pigments are produced.

When heterozygous (one melanotic gene and one non melanotic gene), the melanotic will add black to the male ( darker color than normal) and darken the back and hackles of a female. The melanotic gene does not act the same on every E locus but is consistent on birchen and extended black.

It is my understanding, that the problem with the marans is that some are extended black at the E locus and some also carry wheaten. So you have birds that can be any number of E locus combinations of birchen, extended black and wheaten. As stated earlier, the birds should only be birchen at the E locus. Different combinations at the E locus can mimic false genotypes. For example, A birchen/wheaten bird may look like a birchen bird that is columbian restricted.

Another problem is that some may also carry restrictors like the columbian gene. If heterozygous, the columbian gene has a greater effect upon males than females- in this case males will show more copper on their breast than the females- also in females they will show more copper than usual on their backs.

Males that have non black breasts are columbian or dark brown restricted. If they pass one of these genes on to their female offspring the birds will most likely have backs that express non black- the backs will tend to be red stippled (mossy).

The problem with the birchen gene is that it has variable expression in females- it is not unusual for the backs of females to express red/copper/buff/lemon stippling on a black background (mossy). This is the nature of the gene. This may be true in pullets but as the pullet ages the red/copper stippling can give way to a black back. This is something the marans breeders may want to watch for in their birds. It may be best to show hens and not pullets.

There is no gene that I know of that will add black to the back of a female and not add black to the hackles. Both melanotic and charcoal add black to the hackles and back.
This is the problem.

I believe to get the proper color in males and females, double pen mating may work to solve the problem. I have not personally worked with marans but have consulted with several black copper marans breeders.

For those that are breeding black copper marans, I would suggest they concentrate on breeding for SOP color in females or SOP color for males. Concentrate on one sex. The males should be the easy to breed, it is the females that will be a challenge.

I have a hypothesis, ( I have no data that would support my hypothesis), that females that are heterozygous at the E locus, extended black and birchen, are the birds that
would have black backs ( no mossy problems)with copper in their hackles.


Normally white feathers on a genetically black bird are caused by damage to a feather follicle or some kind of cellular malfunction at the follicle. The black pigment can not get to the growing feather so no color is in the feather. When the bird molts, a damaged follicle will grow in a white feather but a cellular problem may be solved and the feather comes in black.


The color of a birds shanks and bill can tell you about the E locus a bird carries Extended black = black (in non barred birds), birchen= slate or light slate, if a bird carries wheaten this gene will tend to make the legs a lighter color.



Tim

Tim,

On the first highlight about the males being easier, no, not in Marans. Pullets are much easier to obtain the proper coloring and birchen pattern. A correctly conformed and colored Black Copper Marans roo is far harder to obtain in my experience!

As for the white feathers in a black bird, these chicks are born with some white down, which leads to white feathers, generally located in the primary feathers. As these chicks grow, the color black, does indeed, flow to the rest of the feather. Usually, on mine anyway, they end up with a white wing tip or two until they go through the juvenile molt. If after the adult molt they are still showing a white feathering, they are culled from the flock. Another thing I have noticed on my roos, when they are getting ready to lose some feathers, the white will reappear in these so called "tired feathers". Not the whole feather, but a spot or two of white. Within a two week or so time frame, these feathers are then molted. I have observed this happen now on 2 roos in my flock. Has anyone else seen this or even watched that this can occur? On my roos, it will happen on sickle feathers and on foot feathers, and nowhere else. I'd like to hear what anyone else has observed in this regard.

 

[snowbird]

Tim, Glad you made over to this thread. The female BC Marans is much easier to breed to the SOP than the Male. The jury is still out on whether the Male can be bred to the SOP as far as I am concerned. One thing you have to ad into the BC marans is the Mahogany Gene.

The white in the Tail and wing on the BC marans is entirely Genetic and with culling can be eliminated. There is another problem with the BC Marans males and that is the white under the hackle feathers.

This past year out of necessity I used four Mahogany males over all my Dark mostly Black BC females and have about a 90 % rate of copper hackles. Most of the males show way too much Brown so have been culled. any comments appreciated.

 

[tadkerson]

The individuals I discussed black coppers with never said anything about having trouble with males. The biggest problem they had was the red stippling on the black back in females. I was talking about color and not conformation or other traits. What kind of color problems are you having with males? The brown- red (black copper) phenotype is found in other breeds- mostly game type birds and the ameraucana. They (the game birds) have been around for long time.

I am assuming the problem in black copper marans is in the hackles being too orange and not a "copper" color.

It has been my experience and the research I have read indicates that the white on birchen chicks is normal. That is if the birds do not carry any genes that would effect the down on the chick. Watch for feather pecking by other chicks or sub-adults- this can damage the feather follicle causing the tail feathers to come in white.


Snowbird,

Is the under color slate on the rest of the bird, with the white under color only on the neck hackles. The problem with introducing mahogany to the black copper is that it is a restrictor similar to the columbian gene. One mahogany gene will remove some black from the breast of the male producing a spangled appearance on the breast. This will occur if there are no other restrictors in the bird. Other restrictors plus the mahogany gene produces a non black breast on males.

What breed and phenotype were the mahogany males?

Tim

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
Tim, The Mahogany is a natural occurring color in the BC. The BC is not a Brown Red like in the SOP, This is the reason it went into the SOP as a BC and not brown red. The Mahogany males I have used this year are out of the BC.

The white Hackle undercolor is just in the hackle, the balance of the undercolor is dull Black. I believe it might be related to the Wheaten influence.

The standard was also approved with the shanks being Med. to light slate. I believe the light shanks fowl is where I was getting the white in wing and tail. Culled everything with white feather after the Juve molt, and I have culled all males with light legs. I hatched several hundred BC this year and do not have the white in Wing and tail on the Males. I go to several shows and have yet to see a male that is even close to the APA SOP. This is something the people in charge do not want to admit.

 

[flgardengirl]

The BCM chicks have white on thier bellies and wing tips when small some have a little white on thier faces. The white should completely molt out.

Some people have had problems with white tail feathers on the males. The problem I see with the males is too orange of hackles and saddle feathers or the hackles will be lighter than the saddle and top of the wing coppering etc.
The other problem with the males that people have had is too much red on the breast. The breast is only supposed to have about 10% coppering.

Many people have problems with the females either being too mossy on the breast or not having enough coppering on the hackle (being too dark).
Several of my bcm girls do not have enough coppering on thier hackles. I don't have any really mossy girls except one of my silver/black birchen pullets.

Tim, thank you for the explaination of the genes that was really great!! I hope you can help us figure it out lol.

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
flgardengirl, the 10 % for breast color was changed before the Standard was approved by MCCUSA, it only says a few copper spots allowed.

 

[tadkerson]

Don,

The white under color only in the neck hackles is a new one on me. Birds can have white or silver under color because of certain gene combinations but the color covers the entire bird.

When I refer to birds that are birchen based, there are two phenotypes or varieties either brown red which carries birchen and gold or birchen which carries birchen and silver. It is evident that the black coppers have a modifier of some kind that would cause the gold gene to produce the mahogany color in the black coppers.

One of the characteristics associated with the birchen allele is lacing on the breast. The research has not determined if the lacing is caused by the birchen allele or if the lacing is caused by a gene that modifies the birchen phenotype.

What problems do the black copper marans have that are related to the SOP?

Tim

 

[snowbird]

Quote:
Tim, At this time will have to decline from naming the problems with the Approved Standard, There were lots of major problems that were ignored to make the breed look better for approval. The SOP covers most of the Faults and DQs even though they were accidently left out of the Standard.

What really hurts the new Marans people there is so much bad info. available on line, that really makes it hard to breed Marans. Don