Mareks😔

[Egg Blues]

You never get chicks or chickens from outside to add to your flock. They all must be vaccinated at a day or 2 of life. Vaccinated chickens can still CARRY Marek's. The vaccine only prevents them from dying from it. It's taken me years but all my chickens are now vaccinated.

Do not allow any chickens into your flock that have had contact with other chickens. It's a risk. It could kill your flock.

It is worth observing that if the vaccine "only prevents them from dying from it" and yet you still say that "contact with other chickens . . . could kill your flock," the vaccine is relatively ineffective.

I prefer the non-vaccine route. Scientists of today generally acknowledge that the Marek's vaccine has been the cause of its present degree of spread throughout the world.

[Link to National Geographic article on Marek's vaccine enhancing spread of the disease]

[Link to PubMed article on the Marek's vaccine increasing the virulence of the disease]

 

[seminolewind]

I started losing birds when they were about 14 months old. After losing the first bird I had a bit of a break. Maybe 8 months? Then I started losing birds at the rate of one a week, sometimes 2. The weird thing with mine is that they always seemed to go feet up on Sunday. I started dreading seeing Sunday roll around.

That lasted for about 2 years then I started getting breaks. Not long breaks, a few months maybe then a couple more would die.

One one of my second generation Buff Orpingtons, Welsummers and Speckled Sussex's survived to be 3 years old. I had 7 original hens survive. None of my original roosters or their offspring lived past the age of 2.

I've been 'Marek's death free' for three years now. I just lost a rooster and Egyptian Fayoumi hen to some sort of either infection or parasite load that caused sour crop and infection that I couldn't get under control but I do not connect their deaths with MD. The rooster was from resistant local stock and the EF hen had genetic and vaccine immunity. I think it was just a fluke of luck that they both died from the same thing so to speak.

When did it end? Suddenly 3 years ago after I made the painful decision to cull my original flock. If I could have bred resistant birds from the survivors, I would have kept them but like I said. In three years of them breeding like rabbits, on one of their subsequent generations survived and that was a hen. By that time I had lost close to 40 birds.

I added two vaccinated OEGB BBR hens to my flock when I needed emergency chicks to keep a loan chick company when mom rejected it. They are 5 years old now and plugging along, still laying. I hatched some daughters from them in April.

Then I added 5 Egyptian Fayoumi chicks to my flock three years ago. Just hatched 6 eggs from them and those chicks are now almost 3 months old.

I am seeing resistance in my vaccinated birds progeny which I find notable. Does the hen pass resistance on to her chick? I've read some studies that voice that possibility.

More interesting is the fact that out of the Neighborhood Amish Barnyard mixes I hatched I only lost two to suspected Mareks' Disease. As I wrote in my article. I let them breed at will and brother did they have a lot of will thinking that I might have a few live to produce eggs or viable offspring. One summer night my husband found me standing outside the run staring at them running around the run chasing bugs, healthy and fat. His first suspicion was that I had one that I had on Death Watch. I told him. They aren't dying? Why aren't they dying? He shrugged and said 'I don't know but you sure have a lot of birds'.

It dawned on me that those eggs came from an Amish farm within the five mile radius of our farm so well in the contaminated zone for the strain of MD I was fighting. I was looking at natural bred resistance! Everything started to make sense and it was then that I decided to cull the remaining birds of my original flock.

My oldest surviving bird, Old Man died this spring. He was 5. I let him out one day to free range and he escaped to the neighbor's timber. He never came home. Indy is now my longest surviving bird. He is one of the second clutch of Amish eggs that I hatched and he is also just 5 years old.

I've been experimenting with my EF hens and rooster to see if cross breeding them to the Amish barnyard hensnts would boost their bred in resistance. So far I haven't lost any other than two cockerels I butchered for aggression.

As a rule EF roosters are gentle. The Amish barnyard birds have Game Bird genes in them and those genes are proving hard to breed out of them.

I hope I've helped and answered all your questions. Like I said. If you can hang on, it does get better. But while you are hanging on, formulate a plan and do some experimenting.

Hey, I am glad that you all are educating yourself with the right sources.

Not all chickens will die from Marek's symptoms. I had quite a few adults that survived all that and more ,. I had some live a long long life like My Princess Fluffy Britches who died at 12 years old.

Marek's can be a bit hard to eradicate because it can be carried by the wind and be like dust on plants and objects. It's important to also disinfect between flocks and often. And practice all in-all out to break the cycle. The Amish had discovered this I believe in the 70's (?) that it's not just vaccinating, it's cleaning and not mixing new birds with old birds. It's all about reducing the concentration of virus in the chicken area.

I would like to add that concentration of virus can affect the rate of death.

I have looked into breeding for resistance. Resistance is developed from exposure to a virus and not get sick and die. The vaccine is the equivalent of an exposure to Marek's in a safe way. The body reacts the same. It manufactures antibodies to fight the virus either way-the same. The vaccine is just the safe way of getting that exposure.

The Marek's vaccine protects chickens from the symptoms that kill them. Marek's vaccine does not prevent the spread. It saves a life of the vaccinated chick. It does not prevent that vaccinated chicken from carrying or spreading the virus. You are saving a life. That's all.

Exposure to the vaccine or to carrier birds is still exposure, and there has yet to be a chicken resistant to Marek's that can pass those traits on.

It's such a horrible disease!

 

[Egg Blues]

The vaccine is the equivalent of an exposure to Marek's in a safe way.

Not with Marek's. Marek's vaccine does not contain any of the virus, not attenuated, nor otherwise. It does not expose chickens to the Marek's virus at all.

What it has is a completely different virus within the same family of viruses (herpes) that happens to be fatal in turkeys but has no effect with chickens. Exposing chickens to the turkey strain of virus prevents chickens who are exposed to actual Marek's from developing symptoms (becoming symptomatic), while not naturally causing their demise--thus allowing them to spread the virus far wider and for far longer. The Marek's vaccine does not confer immunity, and your antibody theory should be reexamined.

 

[Egg Blues]

For clarification: I have no objection to people making an educated decision to vaccinate their chickens for Marek's. What I object to is the misinformation or lack of information that leads many to make uninformed decisions. The decision to vaccinate or not should be the right of each owner--but it should be supported by truthful and factual information, not merely by the opinions of those who may have ulterior motives (e.g. the vaccine makers, or the commercial interests--not at all referring to anyone posting here).

It should be obvious to all that even though we have individual and personal liberties of choice in matters like this, our choices may impact others. It is precisely for this reason that correct information becomes so important.

 

[seminolewind]

It is worth observing that if the vaccine "only prevents them from dying from it" and yet you still say that "contact with other chickens . . . could kill your flock," the vaccine is relatively ineffective.

I prefer the non-vaccine route. Scientists of today generally acknowledge that the Marek's vaccine has been the cause of its present degree of spread throughout the world.

[Link to National Geographic article on Marek's vaccine enhancing spread of the disease]

[Link to PubMed article on the Marek's vaccine increasing the virulence of the disease]

Yes, vaccines enhance the spread of the virus. It Masks the symptoms so it's near impossible to know if your chicken is spreading the disease or yours catching the disease even from a vaccinated bird.

Yes, a chicken who has had contact with other chickens can be bringing a number of ailments with them. The vaccine is effective with what it does. By saying "contact with other chickens...could kill your flock" I am talking about anyone's chicken flock that's disease free and unvaccinated can catch Marek's from a new member brought in. I myself did that.

Vaccines increasing the virulence of the disease -true. But for many viruses that people get a vaccine for like Influenza it can also end up increasing virulence. Marek's is not the only virus that increases in virulence due to a vaccine. I personally feel that these articles may be focusing on Marek's when there are other viruses that behave the same way. It's sad that in 100 years there has not been any improvements except for the vaccine, and guides to cleanliness, and flock management.

 

[seminolewind]

Not with Marek's. Marek's vaccine does not contain any of the virus, not attenuated, nor otherwise. It does not expose chickens to the Marek's virus at all.

What it has is a completely different virus within the same family of viruses (herpes) that happens to be fatal in turkeys but has no effect with chickens. Exposing chickens to the turkey strain of virus prevents chickens who are exposed to actual Marek's from developing symptoms (becoming symptomatic), while not naturally causing their demise--thus allowing them to spread the virus far wider and for far longer. The Marek's vaccine does not confer immunity, and your antibody theory should be reexamined.

I did find the "ingredients" in the vaccine.

This vaccine contains the SB1 strain of Chicken herpesvirus and the FC-126 strain of Turkey herpesvirus which have been shown to aid in the prevention of Marek’s disease. -----------quoted from drugs.com, as well as other sources.

Marek's vaccine is a "leaky" vaccine meaning the only thing it does do is prevent the chicken from dying from the symptoms. It does not stop a vaccinated chicken from having the virus, carrying and giving it to other chickens. That is what causes the virulence.

Antibodies specifically targeting Marek's virus is what saves the chicken. Antibodies are created by exposing a chicken to Marek's-disease or vaccine. After vaccinating, the chicken needs a few weeks to build their army of antibodies to the amount required.

Backyarders have been left without representation or facts about Marek's. While the larger companies vaccinate, practice all-in, all out (not adding new chickens to an established flock) and mega disinfecting of the areas between flocks, the
backyarders have done the opposite and have very little consistent valid information for prevention. Even tho the virus has been around for 100 years! The web is full of conflicting information due to people inadvertently teaching without knowing what the facts are..

In the 60's/70's, the chicken industry was losing 2/3 of their flocks. The vaccine was created. But not doing that well. The industry finally learned from the Amish how to protect more chickens. They practiced no mixing of flocks and frequent disinfection to aid the vaccine . We need to learn from the industry that does have the data.

 

[seminolewind]

For clarification: I have no objection to people making an educated decision to vaccinate their chickens for Marek's. What I object to is the misinformation or lack of information that leads many to make uninformed decisions. The decision to vaccinate or not should be the right of each owner--but it should be supported by truthful and factual information, not merely by the opinions of those who may have ulterior motives (e.g. the vaccine makers, or the commercial interests--not at all referring to anyone posting here).

It should be obvious to all that even though we have individual and personal liberties of choice in matters like this, our choices may impact others. It is precisely for this reason that correct information becomes so important.

So so true!!!!!!!

 

[Egg Blues]

I did find the "ingredients" in the vaccine.

This vaccine contains the SB1 strain of Chicken herpesvirus and the FC-126 strain of Turkey herpesvirus which have been shown to aid in the prevention of Marek’s disease. -----------quoted from drugs.com, as well as other sources.

Wow. I'm still learning. I had found articles online indicating the vaccine is solely based on the HVT--the turkey virus: for example, [from PubMed]. Apparently, either the vaccine has evolved, or the information I had come across was incomplete. (I don't remember which articles I had read where it was indicated that the vaccine only gave the turkey strain of the virus, so I don't have links to the others, but there were at least a couple.)

But to say that vaccinating is the best idea, even if it produces some resistance to the disease, is still irresponsible, given the current literature. For example, a peer-reviewed study published on the PLOS BIOLOGY site:

[Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens]

Two sentences from its abstract:

Here we show experimentally that immunization of chickens against Marek's disease virus enhances the fitness of more virulent strains, making it possible for hyperpathogenic strains to transmit. Immunity elicited by direct vaccination or by maternal vaccination prolongs host survival but does not prevent infection, viral replication or transmission, thus extending the infectious periods of strains otherwise too lethal to persist.

In other words, the vaccines are what increase the problems with the Marek's disease.

It's my present understanding that the Marek's vaccine does not prevent infection, nor even hinder it, and does not prevent the death of the bird, but simply forestalls it--which is why it is called a "leaky vaccine." Leaky vaccines do not confer immunity as "perfect" vaccines are believed to do.

While perfect vaccines can actually wipe out a disease (e.g. smallpox), leaky vaccines allow it to proliferate.

 

[microchick]

So ur time frame in deaths is kind of similar to mine. Oh man 40 birds!! I’m really hoping that I don’t lose anymore I really dont even have that many more to lose. I have 8 birds left. I got a feeling though that it’s not over! Im probably going to end up with 2 left if I’m lucky. Im just hoping this blows over soon. It seems like this has been going on forever on my end! My plan is to just keep reading more and then eventually making my decision. As of right now though Im really considering not adding on to my flock until they're all gone sadly. I know my kids are going to have a really hard time with that and Im dreading the day I have to explain to them why.

A doctor at the veterinary lab at the university of Missouri at Columbia told me that I would lose a lot of chickens but not all of them and the ones that survived would be resistant.

Hang on to that. Those survivors will be worth their weight in gold.

 

[microchick]

Natural immunity and resistance is definitely the way to go. The vaccine is the way to weaken the genetics in the long run, despite short-term "success" in keeping the birds alive.

I lived with Amish neighbors when I was a child. They are good people, and they have a much healthier and more sustainable lifestyle than most. I wish I had neighbors like that here--but I know of no Amish in Asia.

I don't either!