Mareks😔

[Egg Blues]

There is no cure for Marek's, the hypericum treatment only has anecdotal evidence of effectiveness, no proof.

To say "there is no cure," one goes beyond the realm of scientifically supportable statements, because one of the cardinal rules of science is that it is not possible to prove the non-existence of something. I choose to believe there is a cure, even if we may not have found it yet. "Proof" is also rather difficult to come by in matters of science, which is why words like "evidence" and "theory" are so prevalent.

Any bird carrying Marek's will spread it

From what I have understood, I believe you are correct here.

It's hard to kill outside of a host, it can withstand extreme temperatures and dry air and live in the soil for potentially up to a year (lots of debate on the actual timeframe, but the consensus is that it is highly persistent).

I also understand this to be correct.

It has become ubiquitous, any State lab or knowledgeable vet will agree.

And this is thanks to the Marek's vaccine which has greatly furthered the spread by keeping the carriers of the disease alive to shed the contagion to all their neighbors.



Now, cure or no cure, if a chicken develops actual immunity to the disease, in theory, at least, that chicken should no longer be shedding the virus. This would be because immunity entails having an immune system that correctly recognizes, responds to, and defeats or neutralizes the enemy. For example, I had chicken pox as a child (a herpes virus as is Marek's). I am not spreading chicken pox to all of my contacts. I am immune, and do not become symptomatic again when in contact with others who are suffering an acute case of it. Naturally, the mode of transmission differs between chicken pox and Marek's, but immunity has always meant that, in addition to being protected oneself, one also does not become a vector of transmission for others, and if one were immune to Marek's, continued transmission would cease.

(This is the point of the supposed "herd immunity" that true vaccines are supposed to confer.)

But Marek's vaccine is a "leaky vaccine," one that does not confer immunity. And just here is where an interesting phenomenon of the immune system is worth consideration--one of which the vaccine appears to take advantage.

The immune system will typically exhibit symptoms for just one disease at a time--even if the body hosts multiple simultaneous infections. For example, suppose a person were infected with both dengue fever and the common cold (influenza) at the same time. It is likely that the cold symptoms would be trumped by, and masked by, those of the dengue fever--which was the greater danger. Or suppose one has a cold prior to the onset of gastroenteritis. The gastroenteritis might make it appear that the cold had vanished, as its symptoms came to the fore. Many people would be hard-pressed to think of a time when they were sick with multiple agents at the same time because the immune system typically is symptomatic for only the most urgent of them, and they would not notice the others.

The Marek's vaccine prevents the chickens from becoming symptomatic--even should they acquire the disease. And these are more than mere "carriers" of it--they are "super-spreaders."

 

[B_Chickle01]

I simply posted to offer hope to the person with dying chickens. When I had dying chickens I was THRILLED to stop the death with this remedy. If every chicken I've had since still has Mareks but.... no one else has died that awful half-paralyzed death, then I honestly couldn't care less. My chickens are all healthy and happy - if they are carriers, but no one is dying - not even new chicks I bring up from babies, who cares? I live way out in the boonies, so I'm not putting anyone else in danger. And I didn't have to kill any of my chickens, which are more like pets than livestock, so ..... what difference does it make?
I'm sorry your chicken didn't make it. Mareks weakens them SO much, I honestly think I was lucky to be able to save all the rest of mine.

Thank you for letting me know the name of the stuff I appreciate it!

Im hoping I dont lose another but in the event I do.. or one starts to exhibit similar symptoms rather.. then ill try it. You have nothing to lose at that point IMO. Where do I find this? Online or local feed stores?

Nevermind! Realized thats St.Johns Wort! I need to go to bed

 

[B_Chickle01]

We are. You are not alone. We have lost 3 in the past month. Just now am I putting it all together that it’s Mareks. We can be support buddies. I’ve been racking my brain for weeks know wondering what I am doing wrong, why me, maybe I’m not cut out for this etc. I’ve come back to the same things every time. I’m doing all I can. I’m treating when symptoms show up, I’m loving spending time with them when they are healthy and am culling when their life is no longer quality. It hurts. It sucks. It’s taken me to a dark place late at night. But know from microchicks article that it’s not a ferry sentence for my hobby or our farm. It’s an obstacle now some days are better than others. Cherish the healthy days. Remember those when times are tough. We will overcome and love them in the meantime. Here for you all going through this and in my shoes.

Ive had same thoughts. I thought I was doing something wrong and shouldn’t raise chickens anymore if I couldn’t figure out what was wrong and treat them. Ugh just terrible. It still hurts my heart thinking of all the loss.

I seriously can’t think about it. I still have my chicken Bootsies ashes on my windowsill I sent off for necropsy(Yes I paid for cremation yes Im quite possibly nuts) cause I cant think of even burying her yet with rest. All of my chickens are loved but she’s special. She was like a lap dog more then she was a chicken.

Can I ask which symptoms ur chickens are presenting? If you don’t mind me asking? Im enjoying the ones I have left for sure. Never passing up an opportunity to dish out treats and sneak a quick pet in as they waltz by me lol I appreciate all the support you all are amazing! And ill be here for you as well if u need anything at all. Even if just to cry.. vent..whatever! Xoxo

 

[vicknick]

Thank you for letting me know the name of the stuff I appreciate it!

Im hoping I dont lose another but in the event I do.. or one starts to exhibit similar symptoms rather.. then ill try it. You have nothing to lose at that point IMO. Where do I find this? Online or local feed stores?

Nevermind! Realized thats St.Johns Wort! I need to go to bed

OMG I didn't even know it's st john's wort, lol!!!! I literally have it growing all over the place, haha. I bought the homeopathic pellets at a local herb & natural stuff store, but you can get them online as well.

 

[janiedoe]

I am so sorry for your losses.

 

[B_Chickle01]

I am so sorry for your losses.

Thank u I appreciate it

 

[Tsmith1414]

Ive had same thoughts. I thought I was doing something wrong and shouldn’t raise chickens anymore if I couldn’t figure out what was wrong and treat them. Ugh just terrible. It still hurts my heart thinking of all the loss.

I seriously can’t think about it. I still have my chicken Bootsies ashes on my windowsill I sent off for necropsy(Yes I paid for cremation yes Im quite possibly nuts) cause I cant think of even burying her yet with rest. All of my chickens are loved but she’s special. She was like a lap dog more then she was a chicken.

Can I ask which symptoms ur chickens are presenting? If you don’t mind me asking? Im enjoying the ones I have left for sure. Never passing up an opportunity to dish out treats and sneak a quick pet in as they waltz by me lol I appreciate all the support you all are amazing! And ill be here for you as well if u need anything at all. Even if just to cry.. vent..whatever! Xoxo

I am so sorry, I am just now seeing this. I tried to do the necropsy too but couldn't find anyone in my area available. We have buried all our chickens in the same place where we bury the cats/dogs that pass. They are like pets to us and I have been beating myself up pretty bad for this new flock losses.

1- Maran chick died suddenly age 14/15 weeks no symptoms were present- was fine in the morning- dead a few hours later- she was a bit smaller than her flock mater but never showed any signs of anything going on
2- Silkie with what appeared to be wry neck- 17 weeks- tried vitamins as suggested- died within a day
3- Silkie- found dead- no symptoms- age 15 weeks- was fine in afternoon check- dead hours later- was found under the highest perch and unsure if it was a freak accident or what.
4- Silkie- 19 weeks- wonky foot- toes curling- no wing paralysis- no other paralysis- is getting better with TLC and vitamins- eating drinking

I am not sure if I have Mareks, bad luck or what. I thought it was Mareks because of chick 4, however he/ she is doing much better now so I am not sure.

 

[Tankueray]

1- Maran chick died suddenly age 14/15 weeks no symptoms were present- was fine in the morning- dead a few hours later- she was a bit smaller than her flock mates but never showed any signs of anything going on
2- Silkie with what appeared to be wry neck- 17 weeks- tried vitamins as suggested- died within a day
3- Silkie- found dead- no symptoms- age 15 weeks- was fine in afternoon check- dead hours later- was found under the highest perch and unsure if it was a freak accident or what.
4- Silkie- 19 weeks- wonky foot- toes curling- no wing paralysis- no other paralysis- is getting better with TLC and vitamins- eating drinking

With #3 there's no telling without a test or necropsy, but the others are things that can and do happen with Marek's. Silkies tend to be more susceptible to it too. You'll only know for sure if you test. There's a company in Dallas, vetdna.com, that can do a PCR test for it without culling the chicken.

For example, I had chicken pox as a child (a herpes virus as is Marek's). I am not spreading chicken pox to all of my contacts. I am immune, and do not become symptomatic again when in contact with others who are suffering an acute case of it.

Oh just wait. About 8 years ago, my mom came within 10 feet of a child with an active chicken pox infection, which then triggered Shingles and Bell's Palsy in her dormant virus, one or the other flares up at least once a year now. I don't think Shingrix was out yet, but there's a reason why their commercials are so insistent that people over a certain age get it. Shingles doesn't care!

Also, bad analogy. Besides its tendency to bite you in the ass later in life, Herpes Zoster is probably the lamest of all the human herpes simplex viruses. Try that argument again with the cold sore or STD version and see how that goes.

To say "there is no cure," one goes beyond the realm of scientifically supportable statements, because one of the cardinal rules of science is that it is not possible to prove the non-existence of something. I choose to believe there is a cure, even if we may not have found it yet. "Proof" is also rather difficult to come by in matters of science, which is why words like "evidence" and "theory" are so prevalent.

Hmmm...I've been given that same argument before, nearly verbatim, and it wasn't by a scientist, but someone who was adamant to disprove science in favor of a particular ages old argument. (We're good friends, but apparently I'm damned.) It's totally not a cardinal rule either. A scientist knows there are no absolutes, and therefore knows what those words actually mean when they use or read them, without having to argue about it. There will be no cure because it's a member of Herpesviridae. There is no research being conducted on treating or curing it outside of the interest in the analogous treatment of human cancer and HSVs.

Not even sure why I'm bothering, but here we go:

Plus, there have been more studies linking viruses to various other diseases down the line (e.g. Epstein-Barr (a herpes virus) and Multiple Sclerosis or CFS/ME or fibromyalgia, Long Covid/MCAS, Ebola and PES). Bonus, Herpes viruses do not work like other viruses, and Marek's is a very unusual Herpes virus. If they were cognisant, Herpesviridae would be one of the smartest, if not the smartest, family of viruses out there. It certainly wins an evolutionary medal.

A true "leaky" vaccine is one where the host can pass on the particular strain of the virus contained in the vaccine if they are in contact with others prior to or after their immune system subdues it (vaccinal infection). When a vaccine is found to do that, its use is discontinued or outlawed (e.g., the chick embryo origin ILT vaccine (another herpes virus), banned in Texas for that exact reason). Many of the Marek's serotype vaccines were trashed over the years because they did pass on the vaccine strain. Again, the Marek's HVT vaccine CANNOT pass Marek's because HVT is not Marek's, but just like most of the Covid vaccines, if the vaccinated gets infected, they can spread it without showing symptoms. But, like Covid, Marek's can do that anyway, no vaccine needed, or the symptoms are such that Marek's is not suspected, so it will spread regardless of the vaccine. Even if you figure it out later and cull the flock, you've already tracked it around everywhere you've ever gone while your flock was infected, and it's been blown away on the wind to the coop down the road.

Someone can suffer from cancer and not know it, and get a cold or other disease and those will show, not the obviously worse cancer. Any underlying condition that lowers the immune system, diagnosed or not, can make other unrelated infections worse, but you most certainly can have the symptoms of both at the same time, especially if your immune system doesn't have any memory or training of either.

Survival does not necessarily equal immunity. True immunity means not succumbing to it in the first place, and that's not very common, but usually related to a genetic mutation for or against a particular means of infection*. What's most common is that either by vaccination or survival, the immune system is trained to prevent infection or re-infection. Survival may mean that you can't catch a thing again or show symptoms, but doesn't necessarily mean that you can't spread it (e.g. HIV, many STDs). Herpes viruses, by nature, go dormant and can reactivate when the immune system is challenged. So no, you're not spreading chicken pox around, and Marek's vaccinated or surviving chickens aren't always spreading Marek's around (shedding the virus), people that are vaccinated for Covid (not a herpes virus, so no reactivation) aren't spreading it around to the unvaccinated, but if and when the immune system comes into contact with it or another challenge; the herpes survivor's latent virus could be reactivated and cause a different disease (shingles, Bells' Palsy) and shed (cold sores, herpes STD), or the vaccinated could show no symptoms but still get infected and shed the virus (Marek's, Covid). They (doctors, scientists, researchers, CDC) started using the term herd immunity (correctly) before the Covid vaccines came out, thinking they'd be normal vaccines, and when they found out that the vaccines still allowed people to get infected, they stopped using it, but the media and the government did not, at least for a while, it was a buzzword to encourage vaccination.

Herd immunity is when a percentage of subjects (based on a formula considering multiple factors) are survivors or vaccinated so THAT particular strain of the virus, and maybe closely related strains, are prevented from causing widespread damage across the community, but it only absolutely works if all eligible subjects are vaccinated or survivors and the virus doesn't mutate to overcome the obstacle (e.g., Marek's, Covid, the Flu). (It's called that because it's supposed to protect those that cannot be vaccinated, i.e., the newborn and very old, just as a herd of animals can protect those same members by their sheer numbers.)

In all the history of vaccines, only two diseases have ever been eradicated (smallpox and some cattle disease). Polio was thought to be close, until people stopped getting the vaccine for whatever reason and now it's popping up again, most recently last week in New York. Because of intercontinental travel, shipping, migratory animals, the weather, and because of the sheer population of humans and populations of animals subjected to integrated vertical farming, it was inevitable** that diseases would become more widespread, viruses more virulent, and bacteria more resistant. Some viruses are so bad (or good) at their jobs that they kill most of the hosts before there's an opportunity to spread (e.g., ebola in the past, plague); but with the ability to hop onto a plane and traverse the planet in a matter of hours, before signs of infection are evident, they are no longer kept in check by physical or temporal isolation. Our own interference has made communicable disease worse as well, medications are available now that allow people to survive disease that should have killed or disabled them, yet there are countless incidents of carriers of STDs that knowingly infected others without disclosure. Hell, GEICO may have to pay a woman $5.2 million because of it! (Side note related to the article - there's a reason why they're pushing the HPV vaccine to 12 year old girls AND boys, it's also ubiquitous, and statistically, young people today are very likely to get it.)

Marek's was not made worse by the vaccine, it was made worse by worldwide industrial farming. It was pretty rare until they started getting it in their flocks and demanded a vaccine. And it was good enough that the vaccine only prevented tumors so the meat could still be sold. Those very virulent strains started there, and because they only care about biosecurity going in, the very virulent strains got out. Luckily we do not often see the vv or vv++ strains in the fancy, but it's likely we will at some point, and then they'll spread just as badly as these lesser strains have because of poor information, biosecurity, denial, and sometimes intentional negligence. But you know what, even with the best of all of those things, it will still spread, there is no way to stop it. Marek's is not going away, and it's not as easy to manage as chicken pox. The best and only weapons we have are vaccines, biosecurity, and education. The industry isn't going to help us, not until it's bad enough that it costs them money.

*Fun trivia side note: The blue egg gene came about from a mutation in response to a viral infection.
**Malthus didn't just write about food availability 2 centuries ago, nor did he surmise that we'd actually starve to death, it's much more complex than that.

PSA/Final side note. I'm neither pro or anti vaccine or medicine. I'm not a fan of big Pharma or big Ag, but those problems weren't built in a day, and they will take time to address. Sometimes you may see ads for vaccines and think that it's just a money grab, just like there are unnecessary medications for conditions that no one thought were conditions until the drug company said they were. The consequence is that people don't know what to believe or who to trust. You see it in the fancy, many people have a firm opinion on vaccines for their birds or sometimes just on specific vaccines, I respect that and I don't believe in giving every vaccine available for diseases that are not prevalent in the area, or even for some that are, like coccidiosis, because it's better that they are challenged with and fight off the local strain, rather than a cocktail of common, but not local strains. I base my choices off of research and knowledge and I understand the science, but I know many of you do not, which is why I tend to write novels in my comments. That said, I mentioned "there were reasons" regarding the Shingrix and HPV vaccines earlier, and there are. Drug companies are happy to make a pill for anything that ails ya, but people don't line up to take shots they don't have to, and they don't have a high ROI, so there's often no incentive to mislead anyone about vaccines (okay, for the doctors and drug companies anyway). When you see something in an ad that says it's recommended for everyone in a certain group (e.g., age), and you or someone you care for might fall into that group, ask your doctor. Shingles and HPV have become much more common, is that because of better testing or more people seeking treatment with the same rate of infection? Maybe. Maybe it's always been this bad, maybe it's gotten worse, it doesn't actually matter why, there's a way to defend against it now. Shingles is hell for someone that gets flare ups, HPV could prevent a young woman from being able to have children or cause cancer in men and women. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. For poultry, I think HVT Marek's is a good idea (which I have struggled with) for breeder flocks and those always bringing in new birds, fowlpox if the mosquito is your state bird, Newcastle if you're in California or an NDV listed area, and ILT (non CEO) if you show. It also doesn't hurt to call your state lab and ask them which diseases they see most often, in all types of poultry, just chickens, backyard poultry, commercial poultry, in your area, and statewide. If the lab hasn't seen it, you probably shouldn't vaccinate against it. Remember, these vaccines are only meant to get broilers to slaughter and keep layers laying. Most diseases and vaccines that hide symptoms will still reduce egg production, layers are already culled after 2 years due to a slight drop in egg production, therefore any disease that will affect egg laying is a death sentence and there's no point in using a vaccine if it lowers egg production. So they're generally geared more toward meat production, which only needs to prevent the disease long enough to get to slaughter, and fun fact, Marek's tumor ridden carcasses are not condemned by the USDA, they're just hard to sell to consumers, so that's why there's even a vaccine at all. But you know what?
Shingles doesn't care!

 

[Tankueray]

This won't remain publicly posted for that long, but this is a great episode on the most common poultry diseases:

 

[Henhouse Harlot]

@seminolewind I had a Gold-laced Cochin named "Princess Poofy Pants"!