Mice

[BelovedBirds]

"My argument is that all animals inherently deserve humane treatment" I got the assertion. But I missed any 'reason' behind it.

"this is about someone drowning an animal and calling it painless. It's twisted and wrong" or maybe it's about somebody trying to quickly and expeditiously rid an area of vermin to protect home and flock and being told that is immoral without a basis for the claim other than the mere assertion.

Firstly, you need a reason not to intentionally hurt a defenseless being? That speaks volumes about you, if so.

No, this is about someone who hasnt exhausted other options and chooses the easier, cruel way.
Why do I say that? First they claimed the lack of kill traps were to do with not wanting to deal with gore, then they claimed it was because kill traps weren't humane, then they claimed that drowning is painless, then they claimed that snap traps aren't safe for their house hold.
I'm encouraging people to be humane when possible- not even that they shouldn't kill them, just DON'T cause such immense suffering in the process. Why is that being treated as though its so wrong?? Why is it wrong to ask for compassion for something??? You're not even acknowledging that animals shouldnt be tortured, you're just saying "why do you think they don't deserve it?"
When people start making claims that mice don't deserve humane treatment, this is where I'm getting really fed up.

 

[FBMcrazy8]

My hat's off to you for having breathed in water as well as hot lava to be able to compare the two--and you still survived!

Obviously, we'll just have to agree to disagree when your "facts" are of such a nature as these.

By the way, I may use "mouse" and "rat" interchangeably because where I am I am trapping both. The rats have the ability to jump as much as two and a half feet high, so there's virtually nowhere in the house they don't have access. With baby chicks around, cats are not an option...but, even though you would probably consider the cat option "natural" and not "torture" (and yet you have above indicated that you consider stress to be torture), cats play with their prey deliberately, stressing them so that the adrenaline tenderizes the muscles and makes the meal more tasty. Have you ever watched the cat and mouse game? I have. The cat I watched played with the mouse with the greatest of patience--at least 15 minutes of stressing that mouse before finally finishing it off. And that is "natural."

Sorry, as I’m reading this I can only think of the very only single cat I have ever had in my house….and will never again. But he was not a mouser. I had one in my sink trying to jump out and couldn’t. So the one time I put the cat on the counter, he just watched it and got down…fun. Then we had one that was getting into the gas stove….he got that one because my husband took the front off so I could clean it. But he left off for the night unlike other times where we put it back on. The cat licked it to death! Then we had one on a sticky trap,which yeah I have been lectured about that being inhumane on another online community, but when they are smart and they lick the pb off EVERY snap trap, had to do something different. Anyway he licked that mouse to death too…they were all wet and just eeewwwww! I’m so glad I don’t live in that house anymore. There was ALWAYS mice, living surrounded by wood and fields, all about less than a .5 acre from the house in some parts.

 

[Krugerrand]

Firstly, you need a reason not to intentionally hurt a defenseless being? That speaks volumes about you, if so.

No, this is about someone who hasnt exhausted other options and chooses the easier, cruel way.
Why do I say that? First they claimed the lack of kill traps were to do with not wanting to deal with gore, then they claimed it was because kill traps weren't humane, then they claimed that drowning is painless, then they claimed that snap traps aren't safe for their house hold.
I'm encouraging people to be humane when possible- not even that they shouldn't kill them, just DON'T cause such immense suffering in the process. Why is that being treated as though its so wrong?? Why is it wrong to ask for compassion for something??? You're not even acknowledging that animals shouldnt be tortured, you're just saying "why do you think they don't deserve it?"
When people start making claims that mice don't deserve humane treatment, this is where I'm getting really fed up.

Perhaps it does speak volumes about me. However, I feel that since you were the one to claim a long used method of exterminating mice is immoral then I expect you to be able to support that beyond repeating the assertion.

Morals are a funny thing. Humans used to feed prisoners to lions as a form of entertainment. Here we are a on a chicken forum when domesticated chickens were used as fighting sport long before they were used for eggs and meat. Some parts of the world still permit the sport.

I guess the other thing that bothers me, besides the baseless assertion that other peoples actions are immoral is that you find a cat torturing a mouse better as it's 'natural.' There is nothing natural about acting 'humanely.' It is an incredibly 'unnatural' approach. To claim a desire for acting humanely by definition claims that unnatural is superior to natural.

And, that's where, in my opinion, you're getting mighty close to a religious belief. And while I appreciate peoples' faiths, I shy away from calling people immoral for not sharing my beliefs.

For me, I much prefer the basic spring trap ... in part because I prefer to NOT drown an animal. However, if I had a large infestation, I would definitely consider a bucket trap because they can be far more efficient. At some point, I may have have to resort to a bucket trap for squirrels that insist on eating my pears. But, my pears have to be of higher quality before I go that route .... and maybe by then they'll produce enough that I won't mind sharing.

 

[BelovedBirds]

Perhaps it does speak volumes about me. However, I feel that since you were the one to claim a long used method of exterminating mice is immoral then I expect you to be able to support that beyond repeating the assertion.

Morals are a funny thing. Humans used to feed prisoners to lions as a form of entertainment. Here we are a on a chicken forum when domesticated chickens were used as fighting sport long before they were used for eggs and meat. Some parts of the world still permit the sport.

I guess the other thing that bothers me, besides the baseless assertion that other peoples actions are immoral is that you find a cat torturing a mouse better as it's 'natural.' There is nothing natural about acting 'humanely.' It is an incredibly 'unnatural' approach. To claim a desire for acting humanely by definition claims that unnatural is superior to natural.

And, that's where, in my opinion, you're getting mighty close to a religious belief. And while I appreciate peoples' faiths, I shy away from calling people immoral for not sharing my beliefs.

For me, I much prefer the basic spring trap ... in part because I prefer to NOT drown an animal. However, if I had a large infestation, I would definitely consider a bucket trap because they can be far more efficient. At some point, I may have have to resort to a bucket trap for squirrels that insist on eating my pears. But, my pears have to be of higher quality before I go that route .... and maybe by then they'll produce enough that I won't mind sharing.

I literally said I don't agree with giving them to cats or getting cats to kill them. Natural does not equal humane. Cats repel rodents, from much of what I've heard. Keeping one to ward off an infestation I understand, but I don't agree with having them to tackle an infestation. I would hate to see a cat treating an animal that way.
You bring up cockerel fighting, and watching lions kill people as entertainment as though thats a defense against morals- am I missing something? Both of those things are horrific. Telling me that people lack morals doesn't change my mind about having them?!

 

[aart]

OhGoodLord, take the humane argument somewhere else!

 

[chickmamato7]

My dog has fleas (and occasionally a few ticks)... do you have any ideas on how I can humanely dispose of them? I'm stumped, because I don't want them to suffer from poisoning or drowning & it's so hard to catch them all.

 

[Krugerrand]

I literally said I don't agree with giving them to cats or getting cats to kill them. Natural does not equal humane. Cats repel rodents, from much of what I've heard. Keeping one to ward off an infestation I understand, but I don't agree with having them to tackle an infestation. I would hate to see a cat treating an animal that way.
You bring up cockerel fighting, and watching lions kill people as entertainment as though thats a defense against morals- am I missing something? Both of those things are horrific. Telling me that people lack morals doesn't change my mind about having them?!

Yes, you opposed cats as an termination technique. You also said "I'm well aware of the dynamic between cat and mouse, they play with their prey until, often the prey dies. It absolutely is torturous in most cases, but again, is natural and occurs in the wild."

Now you did get around to acknowledging that "Natural does not equal humane." But it is more than that .... 'Humane' is UNNATURAL. So, if you in anyway think something is better because it is 'natural' then 'humane' must be inferior. 'Humane' goes against all things natural.

My other point was that morals change over time. So, simply asserting something as if it must be true does not make it so. Or at least, I don't see repetition as support for an argument.

 

[BelovedBirds]

Yes, you opposed cats as an termination technique. You also said "I'm well aware of the dynamic between cat and mouse, they play with their prey until, often the prey dies. It absolutely is torturous in most cases, but again, is natural and occurs in the wild."

Now you did get around to acknowledging that "Natural does not equal humane." But it is more than that .... 'Humane' is UNNATURAL. So, if you in anyway think something is better because it is 'natural' then 'humane' must be inferior. 'Humane' goes against all things natural.

My other point was that morals change over time. So, simply asserting something as if it must be true does not make it so. Or at least, I don't see repetition as support for an argument.

I'm sorry but I dont need to explain to you why you should be humane. That isn't something you can just explain. It has to do with empathy and being kind, its the right thing to do. There is no scientific breakdown. Saying something is natural isnt a defense, it's a secondary point of which I already explained my thoughts on.
And again, nature does not equal humane, or better, in most cases. Being humane is the right thing to do.
Argument over, I'm not going to keep talking with you when it is becoming this stupid. OBVIOUSLY you should be humane, I shouldn't need to tell you why. Go back to your parents and ask why you need to be kind, that was their job.

 

[aart]

Argument over, I'm not going to keep talking with you when it is becoming this stupid

Let's hope so.
Would have been good for you to realize that about 3 pages ago.

 

[BelovedBirds]

Let's hope so.
Would have been good for you to realize that about 3 pages ago.

it takes two people to make a conversation

sadly it just got more and more stupid and didnt go anywhere productive