Mites

[rubbleanddebris]

In my experience strong herbs work wonders.
http://www.grit.com/farm-and-garden/marigolds-and-chicken-mites.aspx I found this about a marigold wash.
Mint or Rosemary are great too. I planted basil, rosemary, mint, garlic, and marigolds around the coop. I hang rosemary inside and you can mix dried herbs into whatever material you use for bedding- dust baths too. Its more of a preventative thing though. I've had chickens for several years and never any bug issue, besides the darned flies in the run.

 

[shortgrass]

True - but DE has the potential added hazard of irritating/damaging lung tissue as it is crystalline silica, so I don't use it.  I also was reading some threads on this site about the ash, and it seems it could be hazardous because it is such a fine dust.  Seems someone's chickens all had respiratory issues that were likely caused by bathing in ash. I also wonder about ash since there's often more than just pure wood that's burned - like burned paper residues. But, lots of people use these materials without problems.

I thought it due to "clear the air" so to speak lol, on DE...

Crystalline Silica is one of the most abundant molecules found on earth.. It is in dust, dirt, soil, clay, plants, everywhere lol... Your average garden soil has the same amount or more Silica than the concentration if one cup in a coop
When faced with inhalation of Carbaryl in Sevin, and permathrin in most insecticide, I've always opted for the LEAST concerning, preferably naturally formed

Awesome read here, tons of actual info on what Diatomites are and how they differ from the chemical grade silicants Food grade DE has 3% Silica, where pool grade can be up to 83%... So big difference knowing what you're getting into..

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/silica/780292.pdf


Of course, this is coming from tons of personal experience; in the feed at the granary, cattle and sheep get it, it goes in the coop, I use it in the garden, and I put it in my own wheat prior to milling and using it to bake with. I also use it in my home for numerous uses from insect repellant to dessicant; its in most makeup and deodorants too

Of course, I've also ironically never had lice or mite issues, respiratory problems in myself, family, or animals, or bugs or moisture in my grain either
So after 20 years of actual experience with the product, I stand by it

 

[rubbleanddebris]

The DE thing is relatively unclear to me. I know that it is not much for environmentally friendly despite being a natural product. It is kills all bugs, even the good ones (pollinators for a big one) Annnd it is definitely damaging to the respiratory system. I can imagine is does some damage to other internal organs (its sharp). I stopped using it. If I had a problem with bugs that couldn't be solved a better way, I'd still probably use it.

http://www.the-chicken-chick.com/search?q=de <-- for example

Buuuuttt... better than some things?

 

[SilkieNation]

I thought it due to "clear the air" so to speak lol, on DE...

Crystalline Silica is one of the most abundant molecules found on earth.. It is in dust, dirt, soil, clay, plants, everywhere lol... Your average garden soil has the same amount or more Silica than the concentration if one cup in a coop

When faced with inhalation of Carbaryl in Sevin, and permathrin in most insecticide, I've always opted for the LEAST concerning, preferably naturally formed

Awesome read here, tons of actual info on what Diatomites are and how they differ from the chemical grade silicants

Food grade DE has 3% Silica, where pool grade can be up to 83%... So big difference knowing what you're getting into..

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/silica/780292.pdf


Of course, this is coming from tons of personal experience; in the feed at the granary, cattle and sheep get it, it goes in the coop, I use it in the garden, and I put it in my own wheat prior to milling and using it to bake with. I also use it in my home for numerous uses from insect repellant to dessicant; its in most makeup and deodorants too

Of course, I've also ironically never had lice or mite issues, respiratory problems in myself, family, or animals, or bugs or moisture in my grain either

So after 20 years of actual experience with the product, I stand by it

I'm glad that you have had such good results with DE and that you have so much experience. I used to use it, but I no longer do after a fair amount of research on the material convinced me that there are respiratory risks. I keep my coop, run and any other areas the hens go, very clean and have only had to use Sevin once in ten years.

 

[shortgrass]

The DE thing is relatively unclear to me. I know that it is not much for environmentally friendly despite being a natural product. It is kills all bugs, even the good ones (pollinators for a big one) Annnd it is definitely damaging to the respiratory system. I can imagine is does some damage to other internal organs (its sharp). I stopped using it. If I had a problem with bugs that couldn't be solved a better way, I'd still probably use it.

http://www.the-chicken-chick.com/search?q=de  <-- for example

Buuuuttt... better than some things? 

Ok lol I HAVE to be honest... The chicken chick? She's a LAWYER ROFL.... I dont trust a THING that womann says, because most if what she says is absolutely false. She never even tried DE lol, so that boots that right out the door

It gets flack because of misinformation being spread like wildfire. Misuse of the WRONG chemical being the major culprit.

There's "pool grade", which is a synthetic abrasive toxic chemical used in pool filtering, and there's the good stuff(FOOD GRADE) that's mined. There's problem number 2. ANYTHING underground in caverns during say, mining, would increase the concentration of it in the atmosphere in the mine, causing respiratory issues... ALL mined particles will, quite honestly

There's no more dust in a 50 lb bag of "FOOD GRADE" DE than there is in the rest of the feed row, ground hay, wow dusty! Silage, dusty, corn harvest, way dusty, wheat...no comment(its actually EXPLOSIVE)... Bat Guano, I wear a mask

 

[rubbleanddebris]

I'm not saying it is a horrible toxic chemical that you should never use, rather I believe strongly that it is how it's used that makes it a good or bad product. Like I said, I have used it. It's in my house right now. When I have a bug issue in the house or on any of my animals it is there if I need it. The largest problem I have with the product is he fact that it will kill all and any bug that gets covered in it. In my opinion, Diatomaceous Earth just needs to be used with some care and caution. On that note- some people may not be bothered by that and that's a personal choice. I'm quite a lover of nature and I really appreciate my bees, butterflies, and spiders.
You are right, all sorts of natural and organic products can be harmful to many forms of life especially when not used responsibly. I think people should be informed on that point because it's simply not true to say that it is without flaw or hazard.
It is indisputably a skin and lung irritant. Although I doubt it would ever be lethal, even the food grade product is potentially harmful to you and your chickens depending on how you use it.

As for the Chicken Chick, I'm really unsure as to how her being a lawyer discredits any information she has to give regarding chicken care. I would hope that anyone would take this info with a grain of salt. But- she has experience keeping chickens and she is studied in herbal medicine. It comes down to a personal choice, I just think everyone should do some research and decide what's right for them. Like I said, to me the issue is unclear and that's enough for me to avoid it as a regular use product. I have it for the possibility that my current preventative methods are not enough. For me I'll start with some good strong herbs, diligent coop cleaning, and monitoring the health and behaviors of my hens on the regular. I also have a very small backyard flock and this is something that is easily done, that is certainly not the case for everyone.

People also should know that there is a difference between food grade and feed grade DE. --> http://www.absorbentproductsltd.com/diatomaceous-earth-food-grade-vs-feed-grade.html

Effect on honey bees (this also explains the ways in which DE can be used with less hazards to bees) --> http://www.absorbentproductsltd.com/diatomaceous-earth-and-bees.html

The effects on the environment and humans seem relatively unknown, but doubtful to be very harmful so long as you don't cover yourself in it. ---> http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/degen.html#body

 

[shortgrass]

I'm not saying it is a horrible toxic chemical that you should never use, rather I believe strongly that it is how it's used that makes it a good or bad product.  Like I said, I have used it. It's in my house right now. When I have a bug issue in the house or on any of my animals it is there if I need it. The largest problem I have with the product is he fact that it will kill all and any bug that gets covered in it. In my opinion, Diatomaceous Earth just needs to be used with some care and caution. On that note- some people may not be bothered by that and that's a personal choice. I'm quite a lover of nature and I really appreciate my bees, butterflies, and spiders.
You are right, all sorts of natural and organic products can be harmful to many forms of life especially when not used responsibly. I think people should be informed on that point because it's simply not true to say that it is without flaw or hazard.
It is indisputably a skin and lung irritant. Although I doubt it would ever be lethal, even the food grade product is potentially harmful to you and your chickens depending on how you use it.

As for the Chicken Chick, I'm really unsure as to how her being a lawyer discredits any information she has to give regarding chicken care. I would hope that anyone would take this info with a grain of salt. But- she has experience keeping chickens and she is studied in herbal medicine. It comes down to a personal choice, I just think everyone should do some research and decide what's right for them. Like I said, to me the issue is unclear and that's enough for me to avoid it as a regular use product. I have it for the possibility that my current preventative methods are not enough. For me I'll start with some good strong herbs, diligent coop cleaning, and monitoring the health and behaviors of my hens on the regular. I also have a very small backyard flock and this is something that is easily done, that is certainly not the case for everyone. 

People also should know that there is a difference between food grade and feed grade DE. --> http://www.absorbentproductsltd.com/diatomaceous-earth-food-grade-vs-feed-grade.html

Effect on honey bees (this also explains the ways in which DE can be used with less hazards to bees) --> http://www.absorbentproductsltd.com/diatomaceous-earth-and-bees.html

The effects on the environment and humans seem relatively unknown, but doubtful to be very harmful so long as you don't cover yourself in it. ---> http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/degen.html#body

Absolutely that's why I always make sure to correct any misinformation there might be...

It's the least disruptive control out if my options, and we have hives too, so we are careful about not putting it in them or the flowers, and less costly than some beneficials that can aggravate the bees... Choices abound but all have a downfall somewhere lol etc etc etc...

Lawyers tendcto contradict and a lot if covering their behinds lol, her credit for me us ruined just because if the contradictions in her site

Good links, I appreciate it when full disclosure is attempted, rather than following a bandwagon lol; we learn so much more when we investigate for ourselves

 

[rubbleanddebris]

Yes, everyone needs to figure out what works for their situation. I really don't like being an advice giver

. lol
So many times there isn't really a right answer, just a lot of questions.

 

[beginnergirl]

Appreciate the discussion and information, especially about neem oil and the percentage of silica in food grade DE. Thank you, Shortgrass. I've been using food grade DE for about twenty years. Always carefully in the house during flea issues with my dog and cat. I just started my tiny flock this April but used it under the coop wood chips when ants became a problem. I was feeling very itchy after handling the chickens. Not sure what it was. They were scratching more than normal. Dusted them with DE 3 times once a week and no one is itching anymore including me.

There is silica in dirt and most sand is largely silica. I work with silica and am very careful and wear a respirator. Any fine dust can be a respiratory hazard. I wonder why the Chicken Chick promotes the use of sand in the coop when she is strongly opposed to DE. Dry sand has fine particles (largely silica) that can be extremely dusty so think I will not use it in the dust bath area.

Agreed everyone needs to do their own research. I try to use the smallest amount of the least toxic treatment. Also I am very focused on supporting pollinators. We do not use chemicals and most of my plant choices support wildlife.

I wonder how herbs would work to repel bugs or mites. I will need to learn more about what might be harmful to chickens. Eucalyptus repels some insects but do not know if essential oils are safe for birds. Will do more reading about them. Anyway for me this is all helpful.

 

[Blooie]

@stroudy36 I am fighting this battle right now. Found a mite crawling on an egg on Wednesday. Up until that time I was (I am ashamed to admit) unaware that we even had a problem. So I decided to tackle it in steps. I hope this information helps you....don't know if you'll need it after the acid bath but there may well be a next time. Mites are so persistent that I'm not sure even the acid wash did the trick, aside from corroding and causing folks worry. So let's get on with it.

Step one. Put away the brick cleaner and reserve it for jobs where it's needed. It's not needed here. Get a piece of paper and a large margarita, preferably with lots of salt around the rim of the glass. Drink the margarita and stare at the paper hoping some brilliant idea will come to you. It seldom does, but at least if you have the paper in front of you while you're drinking your margarita it LOOKS like you are busy.

Step two. Pour over all the information on BYC and find the stuff that is doable for you and your situation. Weed out the other stuff, but it's critical to understand that to get a handle on this problem there just aren't any shortcuts. That was tough for me to swallow. Another margarita helped wash it down. Then get out and gather the materials you'll need so you have everything at hand when you're ready to start. Of course, this will also involve grabbing a nice lunch while you're out shopping. See? Nothing to this mite control stuff so far, is there? In fact, up to this point it's been rather pleasant.

This was my shopping list, if this helps.... 2 cans of Permethrin dust, 1 bag of powdered garden lime, (make sure it's garden and is NOT hydrated lime) 1 package of face masks, 1 pair of gloves that can be pitched after all treatment is done, 1 bottle of Neem Oil and a sprayer to use with it. You may, if desired, add a couple of cans of liquid courage...I chose Bud Light because I'm watching my figure. (Have to watch my figure since I can no longer see my feet.)

Step 3. Get the chickens out of the coop. If you have to cage them, do so. If you have a nice run they can use while you're working on the coop, so much the better, or you can let them free range, knowing full well that they'll have to poke their beaks into the coop to see what you're doing in there from time to time. Put on those gloves and that annoying face mask. Remove old bedding and nesting material. (I know, I know. I hated that part too, especially since for the first time I had Deep Litter that was actually working properly.) If you can remove the nest boxes to clean them as well, even better. When you get the coop stripped down to parade rest, everything out, from the feeders, waterers and materials to roosts, it's time to clean. We have a power washer and painted walls in the coop, so that helped shorten the job tremendously, but even a hose with a pressure nozzle will help break down the dust and force some of the mites out of hiding.

Hit the roosts outside with the water first and then stand them up to dry while you go inside to work on the coop. Hit the walls, the studs if they are visible, behind and around the nest boxes, all corners and places where the frame meets the bottom edges, and wherever your roosts were supported. You want that chicken dust out of there and a bare surface for the Neem Oil. Leave the coop as open as possible to air out and dry. It will not dry out completely - at least mine didn't because I have a dirt floor. But once the big puddles are gone, mix up the Neem oil per package directions, adding just a teaspoon or less of dishwashing liquid to help as a surfactant for the Neem Oil. Start spraying every surface you just washed. Make sure that it gets down into any wood joints well, and along the edges and corners of the coop. Pay attention to the area around where the nests and roosts are installed. NeemOil the roosts outside as well, getting a good amount in the ends where the wood is porous. Then hit the floor with a good, even layer of the lime, making sure to get those corners and edges. That will help dry the area and keep it from smelling, as well as be a total irritant to any mites that are down there. At this point you can also put down some of the Premethrin dust in the corners as well, and if you're feeling really disgusted with those darn mites for making you work so hard then hit the areas where the roosts will sit too. Put down a thin layer of bedding on the floor right over the dust and the lime - I say thin because you're going to have to repeat most of this in another week or so, so you want to make the second time go a little faster and smoother than the first. If you have cleaned everything that you took out of the coop, you can now put it back. Put fresh nesting material into the nest boxes, and if you want to add a little DE in with it you certainly can. Personally I'm in the camp of "would rather not risk the respiratory issues" but I did it because I figured they aren't in the nest that long anyway and if a little mite wanted to take a bite of my girls he'd have to get through one more layer of protection first. I also dusted the underside of the roosts and the ends with some Permethrin just because those doggone mites made me so mad. Was it necessary? I dunno. But it made me feel better!

After dark it's time for the chickens. Yep, after dark. We have 28 of them and waiting until they were roosting made this job go so much better. Besides, the mites feed heavily at night so why not wait until the girls were wearing the maximum number of mites for the direct Permethryn attack? We have a flashlight that we wrapped with a blue washcloth, rubber banding it into place to dim the light and create enough light to work by but not enough to wake up all the chickens. Fill an old sock with your Permethrin Dust. Grab a chicken off the roost, hold him/her upside down so the feathers hang down and the bird calms some, then pounce that dust onto the bird, using the sock. Get the vent area and under the wings - this will be easy because you are holding the chicken by the feet so those areas are well exposed. Dust it well, then put it back on the roost and grab the next one and keep going until all the birds have been dusted. You'll probably have dust left over in the sock, and that's fine. I just dropped it into a plastic grocery bag, tied the flaps shut, and put it away to use next week. That's it. You're done.

Step 4. Get those clothes into the wash and hit the shower. Here we drew straws, and I got the short straw so Ken got to shower first. <sigh> But I just waited until I thought he'd had time to wash well, then turned on the kitchen faucet's hot water. He relinquished the shower to me right quick after that. In fact, I wasn't even finished with my celebratory margarita when he came out.

I know it seems overwhelming. It did to me too, but I had to decide if I was going to try short cuts or get it done as thoroughly as possible the first time. I had to break it down into little bites to be able to swallow it all. So that's what I did. By the time we were finished I ached in places nice people don't talk about, and I felt grungy and crawly and yucky. But when I went out to the coop this morning everything was so fresh and clean, and the girls were all just fine. I'll repeat the Neem Oil, the dusting, and pull that latest batch of litter (which is why I put down just a small amount) out of the coop and hit the corners and edges again before putting fresh down. After that, we'll begin a preventative program of routine maintenance that not only includes the things we've always done, but also adds some extra mite protection at the same time. So it adds another 15 minutes to the housekeeping routine....that's still a heck of a lot better than giving up an entire Saturday to do the coop and girls and Sunday to tackle the run and repeat the process in a week.

Added note: We think we found the culprit - everything was fine until the last batch of straw we brought home to use in the nests. Ken went to get some fresh straw from the broken open bale and spotted a mite on the baling twine. Oops. That's kind of where I thought our problem came from but when he saw that this morning we are now pretty sure that was the start of it all.