Momma brought chick near flock

[mi2bugz]

And the rooster got between the momma and the rest of the flock. Like in a protective gesture to tell her to back away....which she did. This is their first day out with the rest of the flock but have seen each other through hardware cloth. Is it normal for the rooster to shun a hen when she is reintroduced to the flock after being broody and hatching out a chick? Will he accept her back into the flock after some time? Or am I misunderstanding their chicken behavior signals?

Thank you for any and all assistance!

~ Nicole

 

[Johnn]

He will just be curious, but if you have had them separated for a while the pecking order will all start again. I have all my broodies sitting in with the flock and they see each other daily when they get off to eat and drink. Once the first chick hatches, the hen and any remaining eggs are moved into a private coop for a week and then they are out free ranging with the flock. I've never had any problems. If the mother hen fights for her place, I bet you anything the cockerel will join in and get the mother hen, so if any fights break out, keep him away or she will end up right at the bottom which isn't good for a mother hen. I would leave them as long as the chicks don't get anymore than a few pecks. Good luck, let me know how it goes!

 

[chooks4life]

And the rooster got between the momma and the rest of the flock. Like in a protective gesture to tell her to back away....which she did.

Whatever he did, it's not protective by any standards I've ever seen or heard of. If he felt protective of her he'd remain with her, not them, and I've never seen a rooster try to defend an adult flock from chicks. Plenty of roosters are obsessive, not protective, and will kill anything that they don't like around the flock, but that's abnormal behavior and not based on any real threat, just an abnormal mentality.

Depending on his body language I'm guessing he was just curious, and she didn't like the attention and decided against bringing her bubs to more chooks. Normally most hens try to keep their babies somewhat peripheral to the flock, not bang smack in the middle as it's a risk to their safety and also deprives them of nutrients as foraging often involves the ability of a chook to defend its meal, or remove it, from the clutches of other chooks, which babies are eminently unsuited to doing. Some adult chooks are opportunists who will come running to a hen's food call and rob her babies of her catches.

No, it's not normal. Under natural circumstances he'd be helping raise the chicks but most modern domestic roosters lack full paternal instinct, but even then most of them don't harm hens with chicks. Some chickens have warped instincts and hens will kill chicks or show no maternal instinct, and likewise males will kill chicks or show no paternal instinct, but in the natural wild family unit they have strong parental instincts and both parents devote themselves to rearing the chicks they make together. How much 'wild-type' instinct yours have depends on the ancestral husbandry methods used to keep them and select breeders, and many domestics are almost completely devoid of all natural instincts while others retain almost all of them.

It's one thing to associate near them, but another to waltz her chicks into the midst of them if her place in the hierarchy has not been re-settled. As Johnn said, they have to resettle hierarchy whenever a chook is removed and returns. Henfights can result in damaged chicks as the chicks often don't have the sense to stay clear. He will accept her back into the flock unless he's mentally unwell, it would be highly abnormal for him to permanently shun a proven breeder and would indicate something wrong with him, more likely than indicating anything wrong with her.

In the wild roosters and hens have separate hierarchies that do not compete with one another, only with their own gender, and most domestic flocks and family lines retain that social structure to some extent, but there are some silly roosters and hens who jump into any fight going and make it worse and more dangerous. Some turkeys and geese are the same, they'll jump into any fight going... Actually you can find this trait in most species but it's never normal and rarely a good thing.

The rooster is not part of the hens' hierarchy ladder, naturally there is a dominant hen and a dominant rooster, and below them a descending ladder of lower-status males and females. Each male and each female will tackle others of their gender to establish their placement on the ladder, not the opposite gender. Alpha roosters do not fight hens to attain alpha status and alpha hens do not fight roosters to attain alpha status. Except, of course, in some very confused and violent flocks. When a third wheel interferes in any social dispute, the two animals being prevented from sorting out their hierarchy issues simply have to postpone the settling due to the unwarranted attacks being launched on them by the outsider. Over time, constant interference in a social dispute will cause exacerbated violence because the longer the issue drags out, the more aggressive and frustrated both contestants become, and this can quickly lead to a maiming or killing just because they were not allowed to sort it out naturally. I've seen this in various species no matter who interfered, even if it was a human. I used to know someone who always stood up for his cat when there were small squabbles within her family, and within a few weeks of that she was permanently ostracized and the other cats never accepted her again. I did warn him but he thought he could artificially/externally solve her hierarchy status for her, even though the warning signs showed loud and clear from the beginning.

Over a few days it got worse and worse and worse, with the hens becoming enraged instead of mildly irritated at one another, until I removed him for their safety because they were looking like they were going to kill one another, or him, or he was going to kick them until he broke unlaid eggs inside them, a very high risk with a female in laying season being kicked in the side, but basically a non-existent or very low risk with a female in laying season being kicked from front-on as happens in a normal one-on-one fight. Three-vs-three or one-vs-two fights are abnormal.

Preventing them from sorting it out causes them to devote more time and energy to sorting it out --- something to also keep in mind if you choose to remove your broody from a battle with another hen. If you keep interfering things will get worse and worse. Only interfere if it looks like they're going to harm or kill one another. Normal chicken fights (whether between males or females) are solved without bloodshed or injury, even though they may look quite fierce. They deliberately battle without attempting to do serious harm.

Thank you for any and all assistance!

~ Nicole

Best wishes with them. If you think his body language was threatening or unfriendly, keep a close eye on him, some roosters are so devoid of complete instinct that they seem to think broody hens are insane because they no longer recognize natural parenting behaviors and so they will attack and possibly kill the hen or chicks. Some hens are the same. When incubators were the only mothers they knew for thousands of generations of their recent ancestry, they lose the understanding of what a broody hen is, or what chicks are, and can become very dangerous to them.

 

[Johnn]

I never knew that being kicked can break an egg inside of a hen. I have a Jersey Giant cockerel who for some reason hates my Welsummer hen and when he gets the chance he chases her and flaps at her etc.

 

[mi2bugz]

Thank you both for the information. Extremely helpful! A little background. I only have 3 hens and 1 rooster. There has never been any "fights" for pecking order. It has only consisted of head bobbing and then one would walk away. The momma was in the middle of the 3 in pecking order. The bottom one is the only one that challenges the momma through the hardware cloth. When the momma and chick went out with the other 3 the momma eventually wondered close to the other 2 hens. Neither of the hens cared but the roo threw out his chest and dipped a wing to "cover" the other 2 hens. None if them paid any attention to the chick what so ever. I think it will be fine but didn't want poor momma to be excluded now. She has gained a lot more courage from being a mom so I am not afraid of her losing her pecking order. She should get it back pretty quickly. I will definitely interfere if the roo gets involved in any if the squabbles. Thank you again! Amazing info!!!!!

 

[Johnn]

Thank you both for the information. Extremely helpful! A little background. I only have 3 hens and 1 rooster. There has never been any "fights" for pecking order. It has only consisted of head bobbing and then one would walk away. The momma was in the middle of the 3 in pecking order. The bottom one is the only one that challenges the momma through the hardware cloth. When the momma and chick went out with the other 3 the momma eventually wondered close to the other 2 hens. Neither of the hens cared but the roo threw out his chest and dipped a wing to "cover" the other 2 hens. None if them paid any attention to the chick what so ever. I think it will be fine but didn't want poor momma to be excluded now. She has gained a lot more courage from being a mom so I am not afraid of her losing her pecking order. She should get it back pretty quickly. I will definitely interfere if the roo gets involved in any if the squabbles. Thank you again! Amazing info!!!!!

Glad she can go out an about with them. Like chooks4life said, the mothers usually keep the chicks away from anyone anyways, so shouldn't be a problem. Mine only come together when feeding and then the mothers usually take the chicks to the woods and the rest of the flock go out in the field. The bottom hen will rather have forgot about her, or just see her as being weak so wants to try and take advantage. I'm sure if she wants her place back, she will fight for it. I'd just leave them to it now, as long as no ones going for them badly then all should be ok. Not sure why your cockerel is acting like that though, mine usually wants to mate the mother hens! The reason I said he will probably go against the mother hen is because I let the mother hen at college out with her chicks after a week and 3 days of being separated and she got into a fight with a hen and the cockerel walked over and started attacking the mother hen making it so the other hen was getting the best of her. I don't like that kind of stuff so I went and split them all up. I'd much rather they had fights infront of me in case they get too bad, but when its 2 on 1 fights its just not fair. If it was my own I would have just dragged the cockerel out of the fight by his tail, but they weren't mine. Mind the hens chicks did well to stay out of the way. A tip for next time though is to try keep her in with the flock when sitting if possible, or at least let her out once a day to see them. Then when she has her chicks put her alone for a week so they get a bit of strength then they should be find to go out without a problem. Hope all goes well

 

[Johnn]

Also breed can help determine how hens will react to chicks. I've found Orpingtons are very maternal and its easy to bring chicks up in a flock of them as they wont peck small chicks. I have found hybrids tend to not care, but I haven't had one attack a chick. Just peck!

 

[chooks4life]

I never knew that being kicked can break an egg inside of a hen. I have a Jersey Giant cockerel who for some reason hates my Welsummer hen and when he gets the chance he chases her and flaps at her etc.

If he just drives her away that's one thing but it's a risk if you have roosters who hit hens. But more of a risk if they don't square off with them, i.e. in cases where the hen is mutually antagonistic and faces the rooster head-on. I've lost a hen to a side blow before, it was a terrible death as the egg sliced her up inside. Generally when two chooks square off, one or two decent boots to the chest sends the weaker running away, no harm done.

I suspect some roosters will pick a hen to be their 'opponent stand-in rooster' just like some hens will take on male roles in the absence of a rooster, even picking other hens to treat like opposing roosters, and like some males in male-only flocks will take on female roles. I know both my chicken and turkey hens have adopted male roles when males were not around and even when males joined the flock some females still keep acting male.

Maybe your Welsummer hen has enough 'headgear' to appear male to your rooster, if she is noticeably larger in that department than your other girls then it could be a case of that type of discrimination. It's not too uncommon. Some of my roosters struggled to understand that single comb hens with large crests are also hens, as they were only used to rosecombed/coral crest or similar type crests on hens. I think they do visually compare hens with large red combs unfavorably with hens with smaller, darker or paler crests when they're inexperienced with other types of breeds, which can happen even if they were raised in mixed flocks and are mixed themselves. Maybe it depends to some extent on how much bantam or non-single-comb heritage they have themselves, I don't know.

If it's bullying rather than two matched opponents, then it's usually attacks to the side and from behind and that's the biggest risk. Any blow that's hard enough, but specifically anything to the side of the chook rather than the front, can easily break an egg in them as there is far less bone and tissue covering the egg, they have no natural defenses in that area whereas their breast areas are quite padded with muscle, and with the fused skeleton of the ribcage, quite armored too.

One of my original turkey hens developed the habit of tackling roosters whenever she was in laying season, she was an excessively aggressive hen, provoking fights nonstop from normally very calm roosters, and every single egg she laid failed to cope with brooding, because they all broke many times each inside her while the shells were still forming, not yet strong enough to cut her. There were multiple impact point star fractures on every single egg from her battles with the roosters, they were thinly patched over with the final layers of calcium before being laid. Only her habit of going and hiding in her nest for hours before actually laying prevented her from getting the eggs smashed within her after the shells hardened.

She was lucky to survive, a chicken hen wouldn't have. If she'd been fighting turkey toms or even turkey hens she'd have died from broken shells. The eggs couldn't take the mild pressure of being brooded and she ended up with nothing for a whole laying season until she wised up. She's a heck of a lot more robust and thicker than a hen and still the impacts damaged her unlaid eggs. A chicken hen would likely have died.

(I usually use a torch to check eggs to keep an eye on quality and sometimes find chicken's eggs with mild fracture points that have 'healed' over and the cracks are invisible without candling/torching them; even a henfight can cause breaks if they're hitting one anothers' lower body. Obviously the average rooster can pack more of a punch than the average hen though so I draw the line before male on female violence).

I agree with keeping them together being the best way to avoid violence and stress in most flocks, I do that myself with my mongrels. Most chicks are hatched wherever the hen laid and brooded her clutch, I just put bottomless small bird cages over them when hatching so they aren't disturbed.

Best wishes.

Thank you both for the information. Extremely helpful! A little background. I only have 3 hens and 1 rooster. There has never been any "fights" for pecking order. It has only consisted of head bobbing and then one would walk away. The momma was in the middle of the 3 in pecking order. The bottom one is the only one that challenges the momma through the hardware cloth. When the momma and chick went out with the other 3 the momma eventually wondered close to the other 2 hens. Neither of the hens cared but the roo threw out his chest and dipped a wing to "cover" the other 2 hens. None if them paid any attention to the chick what so ever. I think it will be fine but didn't want poor momma to be excluded now. She has gained a lot more courage from being a mom so I am not afraid of her losing her pecking order. She should get it back pretty quickly. I will definitely interfere if the roo gets involved in any if the squabbles. Thank you again! Amazing info!!!!!

Sounds like it should be okay, unless your rooster gets any weirder, lol. It's natural and healthy for the mother hen to not be a constant part of the main flock right now, but, it's only a small group so if they can make it work, good for you and them. I'm a little concerned about him showing her defensive or aggressive language (whatever he's doing there is strange) but hopefully it won't degenerate into violence.

Best wishes.

 

[Johnn]

If he just drives her away that's one thing but it's a risk if you have roosters who hit hens. But more of a risk if they don't square off with them, i.e. in cases where the hen is mutually antagonistic and faces the rooster head-on. I've lost a hen to a side blow before, it was a terrible death as the egg sliced her up inside. Generally when two chooks square off, one or two decent boots to the chest sends the weaker running away, no harm done.

I suspect some roosters will pick a hen to be their 'opponent stand-in rooster' just like some hens will take on male roles in the absence of a rooster, even picking other hens to treat like opposing roosters, and like some males in male-only flocks will take on female roles. I know both my chicken and turkey hens have adopted male roles when males were not around and even when males joined the flock some females still keep acting male.

Maybe your Welsummer hen has enough 'headgear' to appear male to your rooster, if she is noticeably larger in that department than your other girls then it could be a case of that type of discrimination. It's not too uncommon. Some of my roosters struggled to understand that single comb hens with large crests are also hens, as they were only used to rosecombed/coral crest or similar type crests on hens. I think they do visually compare hens with large red combs unfavorably with hens with smaller, darker or paler crests when they're inexperienced with other types of breeds, which can happen even if they were raised in mixed flocks and are mixed themselves. Maybe it depends to some extent on how much bantam or non-single-comb heritage they have themselves, I don't know.

If it's bullying rather than two matched opponents, then it's usually attacks to the side and from behind and that's the biggest risk. Any blow that's hard enough, but specifically anything to the side of the chook rather than the front, can easily break an egg in them as there is far less bone and tissue covering the egg, they have no natural defenses in that area whereas their breast areas are quite padded with muscle, and with the fused skeleton of the ribcage, quite armored too.

One of my original turkey hens developed the habit of tackling roosters whenever she was in laying season, she was an excessively aggressive hen, provoking fights nonstop from normally very calm roosters, and every single egg she laid failed to cope with brooding, because they all broke many times each inside her while the shells were still forming, not yet strong enough to cut her. There were multiple impact point star fractures on every single egg from her battles with the roosters, they were thinly patched over with the final layers of calcium before being laid. Only her habit of going and hiding in her nest for hours before actually laying prevented her from getting the eggs smashed within her after the shells hardened.

She was lucky to survive, a chicken hen wouldn't have. If she'd been fighting turkey toms or even turkey hens she'd have died from broken shells. The eggs couldn't take the mild pressure of being brooded and she ended up with nothing for a whole laying season until she wised up. She's a heck of a lot more robust and thicker than a hen and still the impacts damaged her unlaid eggs. A chicken hen would likely have died.

(I usually use a torch to check eggs to keep an eye on quality and sometimes find chicken's eggs with mild fracture points that have 'healed' over and the cracks are invisible without candling/torching them; even a henfight can cause breaks if they're hitting one anothers' lower body. Obviously the average rooster can pack more of a punch than the average hen though so I draw the line before male on female violence).

I agree with keeping them together being the best way to avoid violence and stress in most flocks, I do that myself with my mongrels. Most chicks are hatched wherever the hen laid and brooded her clutch, I just put bottomless small bird cages over them when hatching so they aren't disturbed.

Best wishes.


Sounds like it should be okay, unless your rooster gets any weirder, lol. It's natural and healthy for the mother hen to not be a constant part of the main flock right now, but, it's only a small group so if they can make it work, good for you and them. I'm a little concerned about him showing her defensive or aggressive language (whatever he's doing there is strange) but hopefully it won't degenerate into violence.

Best wishes.

She does have the biggest come out of all the hens, but she is quite small herself. He is starting with another hen now who has the next biggest comb behind that hen. I don't know why he does it. I always shout at him and sometimes take a water bottle to squirt him with when he goes for them. My Welsummer is really skitterish now, she's always watching out for him and does a runner at the slightest movement.

 

[chooks4life]

Maybe he's just got a strong fight drive and not enough understanding of the fact that they're hens, or maybe he doesn't care, he just wants to fight. Some roosters (and some hens) are very strongly bent on fighting others, it is like some obsessive drive or compulsion they cannot deny. I get rid of them for obvious reasons but some other people resort to getting second roosters to put them in their place or give them a focus for their aggression. People do the same with various other poultry as well. Sometimes, pretty often actually, solo roosters with only-female flocks exhibit aggression towards the hens which normally should only be directed at other males. Same thing happens with turkeys, geese, ducks, peacocks, etc.

The third-wheel rooster I mentioned before was raised in a female only flock. He hardly knew what his role was as a male, he was clumsy and very infrequent in mating, rarely found them food, and I suspect he would have benefited from watching other males fulfill the usual rooster roles, finding food and nests etc, as chickens are proven to be able to learn from watching others. I believe one reason my cockerels didn't go through the usual 'terrible teens' stage is because they had role models to observe. But, with the third-wheel rooster, his crowing in the wee hours was the end of him before he got the chance to wise up. He almost never crowed during the day, he just acted like a gender confused hen.

None of my other roosters, either homebred or brought in, were raised in solo-rooster flocks and aggression to females was very, very uncommon. Some folks suggest keeping a certain amount of hens per rooster to stop fights but I've found it relies more on the rooster than the amount of hens; some roosters won't fight even if they have to share hens, and won't mistreat the hens either, whereas others mistreat hens even if they have many dozens, even 100, all to themselves and don't have to share them. Same with male on male aggression, it's not about the females, it's about the males. But, that said, roosters can quickly get used to being solo roosters and develop intolerance, or completely lack some social skills if they've never had to deal with another rooster. For those sorts, introducing new roosters minus the high risk of violence is best done by rearing their own sons with them present.

Hope you find a solution for your rooster's aggression. Best wishes.