Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[chooks4life]

Not sure if I'm joining you in this endevour but I might be so I'm subscribing. We're dealing with something that could be Marek's Disease. We don't have easy access to testing or vets so for the moment, we're waiting to see what happens. So far we've had 3 sick, 2 were culled and one is still hanging on. The first seemed weak, ended up walking on it's hocks then not at all an it would struggle to sit up right. It didn't seem to be paralyzed because it still struggled when handled even in the bitter end

it was still attempting to eat/drink but either it was too weak or it couldn't. It went down hill very fast, like 3 days. Same thing with the second, it looked weak then it was walking on it's hocks then it was gasping for air, then laying and gaping for breath before DH put her down. I asked him to "take a look inside" and he didn't find any growths or tumors but he did find a very full gut tract.... This time it has been much slower, started about 10 days ago and originally I figured it had something to do with the bacon fat that DH fed them but...

Anyway poor guy is tipsy, droopy, eyes are clear and normal but look tired(?) Feathers were looking ruffled and he was spending a lot of time laying down but seems to be less so these last couple days. He hasn't dropped down on his hocks, I have added vitamins to the water made sure there was no access to wet food/bedding (mold?) No more strange treats, access to grit... Better food... There have been no really yucky poops. He does touch his legs and stretch his wings as though something feels off though.... (Sigh) I don't really know what is happening. These were my first birds, bought from a good(?) Breeder and have had no contact as far as I know of with chickens other than on that farm. They weren't vaccinated for anything at all.

Hope things improve for you. Very few of mine were vaccinated and those all had issues, and only a couple of nonvaccinated ones did. But there are very widely varying results out there, it's quite unpredictable. Best wishes.

I'm so sorry to hear that...I hope you are able to get a diagnosis soon. I would be hesitant to say that it's one thing or another without an official vet diagnosis. There are many diseases that have similar symptoms, but it sounds like you're on the right track through process of elimination by checking for wet food/bedding and by giving vitamins. I, too, had a young pullet go down on her hocks...she regained some function, but after a month would walk "knock kneed". She ate and drank well..she was even laying! I eventually had to cull her. Her hocks were becoming inflamed from sitting on them all the time, her feathers in disarray from laying in her own poop...it was the kindest thing to do. I suspected Marek's, this happened before the diagnosis from the vet, but never had her tested, so I can't say for sure. General symptoms here have been lethargy, a general appearance of being unwell, and wasting away. It seems to happen quickly...over the course of a week.
I agree. There is a definite need for more well rounded vets. If they are only taught one way, one point of view, and that's all they care to know, then what are we missing out on as "patients"? Adaptability is a measure of success. I'm currently mired in wedding planning, but plan on getting back on the vet hunt next week.

I spoke too soon about the marans...I have one pullet that is beginning to show signs of lethargy, and the cockerel is looking suspiciously thin. I don't know if it's just the awkward growing stage for him, or what, but he appears to be otherwise healthy. I ended up culling the rest of the speckleds...they have been the most seriously affected, and I didn't want a bunch of diseased birds hanging around as a source of infection for the others..though I know it is certainly rooted in my soil. I have a lot of younger birds up and coming- they are all around 6-8 weeks. I'm hoping that they will prove to be more resistant. It is hard to have to constantly cull these birds. I have started putting fresh garlic in their food and water for its anti microbial properties. Hopefully it will help and I'll have a break in deaths. Whew.

Sorry to hear that. Hope your treatment yields some results. Have you limed the ground wherever they go? Killing the disease in the ground should help, not 100% sure if lime does that but it's worth a go and kills many other pathogens and parasite eggs too.

Best wishes.

 

[Northie]

I think if this continues I'll try to keep only the birds who have shown no symptoms at all as breeding stock. I wish I had better access to avian vets, I did call our local clinic and, thankfully, one of them grew up on a farm and was kind of familiar with chickens. We talked for a while about what was going on and her advice was to start reading, get some vitamins and well chickens are chickens sometimes they eat things they shouldn't. She said to check over my husbandry to see if I was missing something. As far as postmortem's and testing I would have to take the bird to the university labs and she figured that would run me at least $200. She did say to keep the pidgeons away because they'll spread disease quickly from one coop to another.

 

[welasharon]

I'm going to add my little bit here so I can keep up with this. I have had what I feel is marecks in my tolbunt polish and my spitzhauben. As young juveniles I have had some start showing signs of staggering, progressing to sitting on the hocks and I added B complex crushed up to their food and gave them liquid baby vitamins without iron. Happily they recovered and I though great....until they got to POL then return of inability to walk then to stand and eventually to eat. THey all seemed to aim at the food but would come up empty beaked. I wish I had marked the ones who survived to see if they were the ones to later succumb. I have other birds...seramas, modern games, silkies, golden laced polish, o shamos, Madagascar, breda, french copper marans.....a good mix. Some pure bred some back yard birds...but the only ones that have had this have been the tolbunt (from greenfire) and the spitzhaubens (from greenfire). Not saying the problem is them....just that that is where they came from. The breda came from there and are and have been just fine. I think it may be a breed thing. I am about to start collecting tolbunt eggs for a friend and it will be interesting to see how those hatches go.

 

[Nambroth]

I'm going to add my little bit here so I can keep up with this. I have had what I feel is marecks in my tolbunt polish and my spitzhauben. As young juveniles I have had some start showing signs of staggering, progressing to sitting on the hocks and I added B complex crushed up to their food and gave them liquid baby vitamins without iron. Happily they recovered and I though great....until they got to POL then return of inability to walk then to stand and eventually to eat. THey all seemed to aim at the food but would come up empty beaked. I wish I had marked the ones who survived to see if they were the ones to later succumb. I have other birds...seramas, modern games, silkies, golden laced polish, o shamos, Madagascar, breda, french copper marans.....a good mix. Some pure bred some back yard birds...but the only ones that have had this have been the tolbunt (from greenfire) and the spitzhaubens (from greenfire). Not saying the problem is them....just that that is where they came from. The breda came from there and are and have been just fine. I think it may be a breed thing. I am about to start collecting tolbunt eggs for a friend and it will be interesting to see how those hatches go.

Your descriptions do sound a lot like Marek's disease. This isn't a diagnosis, but I just wanted to let you know that I think you are on the right track in suspecting Marek's. Maybe if you lose another to the same symptoms you can have testing done to find out?

I have noticed, and have read that others notice this as well... there is something about coming into Point of Lay (POL) or sexual maturity for roosters, that seems to bring symptoms on. My thought is that the bird's system is going through a lot of hormonal changes and the immune system is slightly compromised, which is when the Marek's can really become active in the bird's system. Lots of people with Marek's flocks seem to find that they experience the most symptoms and loss right around POL in hens (and maturity in roosters).

 

[welasharon]

I will be more particular in paying attention to any future issues. At the time I was so involved in the problem that I wasn't seeing the big picture. Hindsight. As adult issues mine have all been females...to this point.

 

[Nambroth]

I will be more particular in paying attention to any future issues. At the time I was so involved in the problem that I wasn't seeing the big picture. Hindsight. As adult issues mine have all been females...to this point.

I totally understand, that is a completely normal reaction. I did much the same when I lost one. All we can do is continue to learn. I hope you don't have any more losses!

 

[Northie]

Thanks for joining this thread and sharing your knowledge with us nambroth.

I have to say, I had a dissapointing day today. We skipped a trip to the local petting zoo with the Kid's friends. How horrible would it be to bring this disease to a place like that... (Sigh).

 

[seminolewind]

I'm going to add my little bit here so I can keep up with this. I have had what I feel is marecks in my tolbunt polish and my spitzhauben. As young juveniles I have had some start showing signs of staggering, progressing to sitting on the hocks and I added B complex crushed up to their food and gave them liquid baby vitamins without iron. Happily they recovered and I though great....until they got to POL then return of inability to walk then to stand and eventually to eat. THey all seemed to aim at the food but would come up empty beaked. I wish I had marked the ones who survived to see if they were the ones to later succumb. I have other birds...seramas, modern games, silkies, golden laced polish, o shamos, Madagascar, breda, french copper marans.....a good mix. Some pure bred some back yard birds...but the only ones that have had this have been the tolbunt (from greenfire) and the spitzhaubens (from greenfire). Not saying the problem is them....just that that is where they came from. The breda came from there and are and have been just fine. I think it may be a breed thing. I am about to start collecting tolbunt eggs for a friend and it will be interesting to see how those hatches go.

There were others that got the same from the same breeder. In fact my Tolbunt roo was a gift from someone who had a great amount of deaths, and he was one of the survivor. She mailed him to me in a box -our flocks both had it.

She ended up losing many of those breeds they charged a fortune for at the time. It was really awful. Another acquaintance had it happen to her too. Same place. And, the breeder would not sell eggs.

 

[seminolewind]

Good to hear about your home-breds. Hope they remain strong against it.

Quote:

lol yes, they are often effectively programmed, it's amazing how little some professionals know. :/

I have some worrying personal experiences, and know of quite a few people whom I don't doubt the veracity of with equivalent experiences, detailing shocking ignorance demonstrated by professionals. I believe most of them would benefit from hands-on experience as part of their training, which I know is probably asking too much, it's time consuming enough to do one or the other, never mind both studying and animal keeping. Good enough has to be good enough.

There are some vets even on this forum who don't know the basics, but at least as poultry keepers they are getting on track to learn as much as possible. All book learning and no hands-on learning leaves staggering great gaps in comprehension. Unfortunately excessive book learning minus experience with the practical side of things can apparently blind some people to reality perhaps for life. And unfortunately many textbooks being used to train our trusted professionals are riddled with some serious errors.

I'm not trying to make myself out to be some kind of expert here, I make no such claim; my opinion is based on the many textbooks I've studied for most of my life and having found not one single textbook to be totally correct. I keep multiple copies of books from different authors on every subject I'm interested in because every single one disagrees with others who are equally accredited, and every single one has at least one 'fact' I have found to be wrong, irrespective of how many of their other facts are correct. I'm not sure what's more frightening, professionals with incorrect knowledge or those who blindly trust in all they say.

Best wishes.

Wonderful post.

 

[seminolewind]

First and foremost- I started this thread for people to share their experience with dealing with Marek's Disease- particularily those who are breeding for resistance. I encourage everyone to share their knowledge, experience, and perhaps support others who are also struggling with how to move forward.

Whew. Okay. I will spare y'all a blow by blow account, but after being a HUGE biosecurity advocate, I recently had a bird diagnosed with Marek's. I had went all out...disinfecting after going to the feed store, never going to other peoples farms who had chickens, only buying hatching eggs to reduce any possible diseases, etc. etc. etc. Yet MD STILL made its way into my flock. It's been about a month...I have had to cull about 10 birds so far. Most of them pullets. Go figure I can only chalk it up to bad luck...after all, I do live in GA, and there are about 10 chicken houses within a two mile radius of my house...literally disease INCUBATORS. It could have came from ANYWHERE. I have gone through feeling shocked, angry, depressed, and now I'm just resolved to move on. I REFUSE to think that a MD diagnosis is a death knell for my entire flock, or to my chicken keeping.

Me being the biology major that I am, I immediately set out to find as much information as I could...only to be bitterly disappointed. There seems to be three different camps on how to deal with MD- depopulate (old timers said to burn the chicken house to the ground with the chickens in it. Not happening.) and wait AT LEAST one year (studies have found the virus to survive for 65 weeks), keep a closed flock & vaccinate any incoming birds, and lastly, breed for resistance. This last group seems to be woefully small....

The depopulation route is not an option for me. Not that I have a problem culling birds, but because the thought of my birds catching MD again, after all the work and wait, is just unimaginable. Vaccination seems like a good route initially, until I found out that the vaccine does NOT prevent infection, only lessens the symptoms if infected, and in turn potentially perpetuating the problem by extending the life of a bird that is infected, and therefore shedding the virus....the be blown by the wind or carried by a wild bird or inadvertently by me. These virus containing particles can be microscopic, y'all. I would NEVER intentially infect anyone else's flock, but what am I supposed to do? Wear a hazmat suit? I would never judge or put down anyone who has chosen a different route, but the only thing that has made sense to me is to breed for resistance. I know it can be done. I know it will be heartbreaking to cull all affected birds...but I feel that it is the best way to deal with this insidious disease. So I would love for y'all to share your experiences on breeding for resistance! Thanks for reading my rant!

Special thanks to seminolewind who heard me out

Sassy, seems like your flock would be not getting Marek's with that flock history. And even with those chicken houses, the chickens are vaccinated and deaths from Marek's is less than 5%. I'm not saying that your flock can't get it or didn't get it. Having chicken houses in the area is a risk.

I just lost a hen a few months ago who has supposedly been surrounded by Marek's for 3-4 years, and tested negative!!! + for Aspergillosis. I don't believe she could be negative. So I will send the next one as well. I wonder if you should send another for a necropsy?

Nutrition. I think I've read and compared every chicken feed out there, and no matter how pricey, or whatever they promise, instead of beating my head against the wall, I just make sure they have some healthy food from me to compensate, and free range. I've also added Nutritional yeast fortified with all the B vitamins-just to see.

With feed it seems the most important thing to me is buying it from a feed store that has a really high turnover and the bags don't sit there for months. Purina even puts the date of manufacture on the bag.