Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[ChicKat]

How often do flocks get tested for NPIP? Do you need that to show? Maybe they should add Marek's to the testing.

I am not an NPIP expert, but this is what I understand:

The breeder birds in NPIP flocks get tested once each year in order to remain with the program. The main disease that the NPIP is concerned with is Pullorum disease, though of course, they also test for other diseases like Mycoplasma, Fowl Typhoid, and Avian Influenza.

You have to be NPIP certified, or have equivalent testing (state program or individual bird tests) in order to show, sell birds, and ship across state lines.

Marek's testing would certainly be helpful, since it would allow people to confirm (not just guess) that their flocks have Marek's. Then, they could warn people that their flocks contained the disease, and not risk infecting innocent flocks quite as much. I'm not sure if NPIP officials would think that Marek's is a serious enough disease to bar Marek's birds from the showroom, however. The NPIP is mostly a large-scale program that focuses on the commercial poultry industry--which has no problems with Marek's since every commercial bird is vaccinated.

I think perhaps there is a difference in different states.

Here in TX to legally sell, ship including out of state and hatching eggs, it requires only the P/T test. This is done on your premises for no cost. NPIP - is aimed for more commercial and both the tests are required to be done yearly. P/T is free, NPIP is $100 per year. In addition there is a state seller's license, that has a price based on the number of chickens you have. If you are under 100 birds (like I am) - you only pay 35.00 per year for the sellers license.

Down the road from me is an auction barn that occasiionally has chicken sales, monthly they have horses, and junque on the preceding Saturday--it is pretty interesting. Most auction rings in TX are devoted to selling cattle from my experience. The auction barn requires a state seller's license. ETA - the state seller's license requires P/T testing.

To enter poultry in any show here a current P/T certificate is required, and the certificate should travel with any birds that are sold, traded, or travel within the state ( I expect across state lines as well)--- I don't think it is strictly enforced, and before I knew the 'rules' I actually did ship hatching eggs out of state to someone.

So in TX a quick answer to SeminoleWind's question is that NPIP isn't needed to show -- only P/T testing. I would have one big concern about adding a Merek's test to the requirement -what happens in the case of a false positive? For P/T if the birds test positive the sample or a sample of blood goes to the diagnostic lab - for more thorough testing than the field test...but from what I have heard the only true way to positively diagnose Merek's is to have a necropsy. Perhaps this has changed. How awful it would be to sacrifice a bird based on a false positive. JMO.

 

[speckledhen]

Quote: There is a blood PCR test for the presence of Marek's, but not sure how long it would take for results to get back.

NPIP does not test for MG unless it is paid for and it's extra, every quarter. Most don't do that. Want to make that clear for some folks who think NPIP means 'healthy'. It does not at all. Plenty of NPIP flocks are MG-positive while mine are MG-negative.

 

[ChicKat]

There is a blood PCR test for the presence of Marek's, but not sure how long it would take for results to get back.

NPIP does not test for MG unless it is paid for and it's extra, every quarter. Most don't do that. Want to make that clear for some folks who think NPIP means 'healthy'. It does not at all. Plenty of NPIP flocks are MG-positive while mine are MG-negative.

It really does make it confusing..... Maybe the biggest difference between NPIP and just the P/T testing is that NPIP is considered National?

I think, however that the NPIP testing is done by the same people within the State. A lot of people do think the P/T and NPIP are the same thing, however one is fee and one is free.

ETA - meaning a false positive on the blood testing for Merek's in my earlier post.

 

[speckledhen]

It really does make it confusing..... Maybe the biggest difference between NPIP and just the P/T testing is that NPIP is considered National?

I think, however that the NPIP testing is done by the same people within the State. A lot of people do think the P/T and NPIP are the same thing, however one is fee and one is free.

I think NPIP is good for one year and an annual "membership" thing. P/T testing can be a one-time thing for a one-time event. Same people, same test.

NPIP was not for folks showing poultry or for backyard breeders, but set up to protect the food supply. It's now touted as the stamp of a healthy flock, when an NPIP flock can have mycoplasmosis and Marek's and be carriers of Coryza or any number of other things they do not test for.


By the way, if you missed it Texas A&M will do a PCR test for Marek's, but it's over $30 for out of staters like me.

 

[ChicKat]

I think NPIP is good for one year and an annual "membership" thing. P/T testing can be a one-time thing for a one-time event. Same people, same test.

NPIP was not for folks showing poultry or for backyard breeders, but set up to protect the food supply. It's now touted as the stamp of a healthy flock, when an NPIP flock can have mycoplasmosis and Marek's and be carriers of Coryza or any number of other things they do not test for.

Agreed - usually NPIP is considered a badge of honor type of thing. Sadly, there is a lot it doesn't tell. It would be tremendously expensive to give all the diagnostics to a flock to insure that there were no disease antibodies in the flock....

Here P/T must be repeated each year.

Unless AI is added into the NPIP- basically P/T and NPIP are the same thing as I understand it ... except for the price tag and the cachet of NPIP --

 

[speckledhen]

Agreed - usually NPIP is considered a badge of honor type of thing. Sadly, there is a lot it doesn't tell. It would be tremendously expensive to give all the diagnostics to a flock to insure that there were no disease antibodies in the flock....

Here P/T must be repeated each year.

Unless AI is added into the NPIP- basically P/T and NPIP are the same thing as I understand it ... except for the price tag and the cachet of NPIP --

I'm not sure about that here, though. I think you can have a one time test, but if you are in the program, there are some small extra perks you get with it. You said P/T must be repeated each year.. for who? NPIP members? No one has to test for anything here unless they want to. I haven't checked the cost for NPIP here because I don't want them in my business any more than they have to be. Let me see if I can find out, though.

A GA member posted this in 2009:

Quote: Will check for new costs now.

Must be the same. Here is a nice explanation from 2012 on someone's blog.

http://fluffybottomsfarm.blogspot.com/p/npip-testing-in-georgia.html

 

[chooks4life]

I totally understand the whole 'don't jump at ghosts' thing, but my family has been bitten by that many 'ghosts' (aka theoretically very unlikely occurrences) that we know better than to dismiss them now.

Someone mentioned there is no horizontal transmission from vaccinated birds to unvaccinated birds in the case of neither being exposed, as per the claim made by that poultry site, but I've read that there is some degree of it, on a few sites now (research ones, not layperson ones, lol)...

I'm off to bed now so won't spam some links, but here's some info:
Quote: Source: http://www.bioproperties.com.au/vaccines/documents/bro-mareks.pdf
Quote:
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23901761

This might be seen as 'jumping at ghosts' but personal experience has led me to take things overall with a bit more seriousness; if there is a possibility, almost no matter how slight, I bear it in mind. Failure to do so has brought us undone so many times now, I guess I probably am a bit sensitized to low probabilities. They've never been as low as we were counting on them being, lol!

Bit of random further reading for those interested:
Quote: Quote: Source:http://www.thepoultrysite.com/artic...reks-disease-outbreaks-in-vaccinated-broilers

Best wishes.

 

[speckledhen]

I sent off a long email to Dr. Davis asking some of what I've asked here, about the lead toxicity, the liver differences between the two hens, no deaths or illness in any young birds, etc. I don't want to be pushy, but I NEED TO KNOW. I have two cockerels with Dottie who are spoken for. They cannot leave here if there is a chance they will pass something off this property. They are very active, healthy critters, as far as I can tell, like all chicks who leave this place and I don't even have a place for them except in the main laying flock with Rex, but...

Before he gives me a final report, I need this stuff addressed, if he has to do extra testing, if he will. I also told him I'm not just asking for me but for all of us who are trying to learn more about this in a deeper way.

 

[ChicKat]

I sent off a long email to Dr. Davis asking some of what I've asked here, about the lead toxicity, the liver differences between the two hens, no deaths or illness in any young birds, etc. I don't want to be pushy, but I NEED TO KNOW. I have two cockerels with Dottie who are spoken for. They cannot leave here if there is a chance they will pass something off this property. They are very active, healthy critters, as far as I can tell, like all chicks who leave this place and I don't even have a place for them except in the main laying flock with Rex, but...

Before he gives me a final report, I need this stuff addressed, if he has to do extra testing, if he will. I also told him I'm not just asking for me but for all of us who are trying to learn more about this in a deeper way.

This is a quote from the Merck Vet manual I listed in the Buckeye thread. (BTW there is a photo of a Merek's liver in that Merck site)


From Merck Vet Manual:
"Marek's disease is one of the most ubiquitous avian infections; it is identified in chicken flocks worldwide. Every flock, except for those maintained under strict pathogen-free conditions, is presumed to be infected. Although clinical disease is not always apparent in infected flocks, a subclinical decrease in growth rate and egg production may be economically important."
emphasis is mine above

If that is correct, your destination flock may have Merek's arlready. We may all have Merek's and not know it. I think it is good to discuss it with the person...especially if they were looking forward to - a particular set of traits from the chickens you have for them.

If we expect that all flocks have exposure to Merek's, and that our chickens are healthy despite that, we may all sleep easier.

If someone I wanted a particular set of traits from had a death on their place from Marek's - I would probably go forward and get the chicken(s) from them, I would quarantine longer and stricter - but I have a feeling that Marek's can be overcome. Especially in rare breeds--- were there are few individual lines in the gene pool -- sometimes I think it would be worth taking some calculated risk. It would depend on one's facilities too-- and how well you could quarantine. I think that if I took a bird to a show, I would quarantine upon return as if it were a new bird arriving on my place.

 

[speckledhen]

This is a quote from the Merck Vet manual I listed in the Buckeye thread. (BTW there is a photo of a Merek's liver in that Merck site)


From Merck Vet Manual:
"Marek's disease is one of the most ubiquitous avian infections; it is identified in chicken flocks worldwide. Every flock, except for those maintained under strict pathogen-free conditions, is presumed to be infected. Although clinical disease is not always apparent in infected flocks, a subclinical decrease in growth rate and egg production may be economically important."
emphasis is mine above

If that is correct, your destination flock may have Merek's arlready. We may all have Merek's and not know it. I think it is good to discuss it with the person...especially if they were looking forward to - a particular set of traits from the chickens you have for them.

If we expect that all flocks have exposure to Merek's, and that our chickens are healthy despite that, we may all sleep easier.

If someone I wanted a particular set of traits from had a death on their place from Marek's - I would probably go forward and get the chicken(s) from them, I would quarantine longer and stricter - but I have a feeling that Marek's can be overcome. Especially in rare breeds--- were there are few individual lines in the gene pool -- sometimes I think it would be worth taking some calculated risk. It would depend on one's facilities too-- and how well you could quarantine. I think that if I took a bird to a show, I would quarantine upon return as if it were a new bird arriving on my place.

That statement in blue is what I cannot readily swallow. They say the same thing about Mycoplasmosis and my flock is currently and has always been MG/MS-free. I still do not know why exposure ALWAYS means infection. It doesn't in any other disease on the planet. We should never go out in public or to the doctor's office, certainly, if we caught everything we were exposed to. Even birds who are exposed to mycoplasmosis don't always catch it and just exposure does not make them carriers of it. That's where the strong immune system comes into play, IMO.

You may think this from all I've been saying, but I'm not one of those "in denial" types. I want facts and I want to act ONLY on those facts, not on supposition. A misdiagnosis would be a real disservice to me and my flock, though unintentional it may be. If it is in fact, Marek's in my hen, then I'll act accordingly, though I pretty much do most things exactly the same as that situation would call for, other than I'd not be selling my extra chicks now. I could hatch chicks if someone came to pick them up from me immediately out of the brooder, of course, but beyond that, no birds could leave. Why I'd never have any signs of it in the young or any other birds and only find something when one died from a reproductive infection is just unexplainable.

I have no idea about the destination flock's status on this one. He raises heritage breeds in TN. Depending on what I find out in the end, I will tell my customer, who really wants this one cockerel in particular, a brother to one he had, and he can make his own informed decision. It's entirely up to him, though.