Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[speckledhen]

Cynthia, lots of illnessis mimic Marek's and Marek's mimics lot of other illnesses. I think the bottom line would be on necropsy, finding gross tumors, microscopic tumors, and enlarged nerves. Tumors, to a pathologist, all have tell-tale differences. A pcr is one step further . All 3 results are taken into consideration to form their opinion.

The lead symptoms are interesting. I wonder what parts of a chicken can be tested for that? Feathers?

I guess my main reason for posting is that so many jump to the Marek's conclusion. It used to drive me batty on BYC. This goes to show that you cannot automatically assume that paralysis, head weakness, etc, are Marek's. Naturally, a thorough necropsy would be in order to determine what really happened.

I asked Ladyhawk to repeat here what the University of Kentucky veterinarian told her through their extensive conversation related to her bantam hen's necropsy, which is in the final stage of completion. Good grief, they are testing for EVERYTHING including rabies and West Nile. It's amazing how extensive the list is, what she is getting for her $40.

 

[PetRock]

I guess my main reason for posting is that so many jump to the Marek's conclusion. It used to drive me batty on BYC. This goes to show that you cannot automatically assume that paralysis, head weakness, etc, are Marek's. Naturally, a thorough necropsy would be in order to determine what really happened.

I asked Ladyhawk to repeat here what the University of Kentucky veterinarian told her through their extensive conversation related to her bantam hen's necropsy, which is in the final stage of completion. Good grief, they are testing for EVERYTHING including rabies and West Nile. It's amazing how extensive the list is, what she is getting for her $40.

I just sent in a 28 week old Langshan cockerel that had what I thought was classic symptoms of Merek's. He went lame and then unfortunately was picked on by the other cockerels in his pen before I removed him. My breeding flocks are on a farm out in the country and only get out there once or twice a week. He was limping but still eating and drinking then when I returned a few days later, he was down with a massive wound on his side. We culled him and sent him to UC Davis for necropsy. The report came back "suggestive of Merek's". He had no internal tumors. 2 more birds in the pen were limping but it looked like they each had a problem with one of their hocks. I know that LF Langshans can have problems with their hocks and what some people call hock blow out. We processed the 2 boys and each had one joint was very swollen which I've read is not indicative of Merek's. It makes me wonder if the first boy really didn't have Merek's after all. 2 1/2 weeks and counting with no others showing joint problems or paralysis.

 

[speckledhen]

I just sent in a 28 week old Langshan cockerel that had what I thought was classic symptoms of Merek's. He went lame and then unfortunately was picked on by the other cockerels in his pen before I removed him. My breeding flocks are on a farm out in the country and only get out there once or twice a week. He was limping but still eating and drinking then when I returned a few days later, he was down with a massive wound on his side. We culled him and sent him to UC Davis for necropsy. The report came back "suggestive of Merek's". He had no internal tumors. 2 more birds in the pen were limping but it looked like they each had a problem with one of their hocks. I know that LF Langshans can have problems with their hocks and what some people call hock blow out. We processed the 2 boys and each had one joint was very swollen which I've read is not indicative of Merek's. It makes me wonder if the first boy really didn't have Merek's after all. 2 1/2 weeks and counting with no others showing joint problems or paralysis.

Regarding genetic leg issues, my Delaware hen, Georgie, carries a dwarf gene, which she occasionally passes on. With this type of dwarfism in the chicks, you see crooked toes, parrot beak, mongoloid-ish eyes and of course, short legs, and they do not live to adulthood. Also, a number of her chicks, though not showing the actual dwarfism, have hock issues right in the brooder immediately or a week or two into their lives and must be euthanized. That is attributable to her dwarf gene. Only about 20-25% of her chicks have any symptoms of the gene and most don't seem to inherit it, or at least, they grow up normal and huge. I have one 7 week old cockerel now out of her (she's my last Del hen) who is a chunky monkey, healthy and strong. So, there are genetic predispositions to leg issues that have nothing to do with any virus.

 

[gjensen]

I guess my main reason for posting is that so many jump to the Marek's conclusion. It used to drive me batty on BYC. This goes to show that you cannot automatically assume that paralysis, head weakness, etc, are Marek's. Naturally, a thorough necropsy would be in order to determine what really happened.

I asked Ladyhawk to repeat here what the University of Kentucky veterinarian told her through their extensive conversation related to her bantam hen's necropsy, which is in the final stage of completion. Good grief, they are testing for EVERYTHING including rabies and West Nile. It's amazing how extensive the list is, what she is getting for her $40.

A lot of illnesses have similarities to Marek's, and Marek's has a lot of similarities to other diseases. Many diseases are like that.

It as not as much what we know that leads us the wrong way as it is what we do not know.

I agree that in some cases it is best to turn it over to a professional. Unfortunately, that can be more or less reliable. Generally the State does a good job. We have a pretty good program and group of people here.

 

[speckledhen]

A lot of illnesses have similarities to Marek's, and Marek's has a lot of similarities to other diseases. Many diseases are like that.

It as not as much what we know that leads us the wrong way as it is what we do not know.

I agree that in some cases it is best to turn it over to a professional. Unfortunately, that can be more or less reliable. Generally the State does a good job. We have a pretty good program and group of people here.

That's what bugs me is the "less reliable" part, the fear that they'll dismiss something as Marek's without really doing the definitive tissue test, the tendency to think they know what they're seeing simply because they see it so much, without taking into consideration anything else. It may be an irrational fear on my part, but after seeing other ailments which are/can be similar, I would hate to be told I had Marek's in the flock if, in fact, it was something else. I guess if that happened and I was not convinced of their findings, I could try to find the $$ to send a blood sample to a lab for a PCR test for at least one bird, though, that will only tell me about that one bird, right? I can't afford to test ten birds at $30+ each. Karen has had negative tests in what she knows is a positive flock, so she ostensibly has some birds who have it and some who don't.


Was mulling over something today as my brain was wandering. And it may have wandered into a ditch, so bear with me, LOL. I keep seeing "buy stock from Marek's resistant flocks" in articles here and there. They don't say "Marek's resistant breeds", like the Egyptian Fayoumi. Now, if for instance, using my hen as an example, my hen is diagnosed as having Marek's (though I'd say the massive infection killed her, even if) and thinking of the fact that NO young birds have died here, none with Marek's-like symptoms, no losses, no hint that it has ever been here on this property in any of my flocks, I could surmise that I have a Marek's resistant bunch of birds. Adding those two things together, the admonition to buy MD-resistant stock and a person having resistant stock, that person would want to advertise his birds as "Marek's resistant". For a flock to be Marek's resistant, wouldn't you have to know they had been exposed to one or more MD-positive birds and had not come down with the debilitating symptoms?

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
petrock, what exactly was suggestive of Marek's? Was this the final report ? Was it a joint or a nerve you saw?
With one suggestive necropsy, and 2 more limpers, it sounds like you may want to send the next victim.

This thread was "breeding for resistance to Marek's disease" , and I hope the discussions have focused on that and symptoms. I hate it too when someone jumps to Marek's. I tell them to keep looking for another answer, or vitamins. The members that I know that help with Marek's questions first ask a lot more questions. The biggest suggestion is get a necropsy. Casportpony has a very good link to how to pack a chicken body the correct way, and also a list of labs for most states.

It's also important to get information from other sources than the web.

Cynthia, for all who are involved in this thread , you do find that the more knowledge you have about Marek's, the less likely you are to jump to "you have Marek's" conclusion. We have a good group on this thread, a lot of education that one person couldn't possibly have gotten it all by themselves. You've been getting a good correct education on Marek's, as well as others here. You've done a lot of "thinking outloud" which has brought a lot of information out, especially some one who, like you, is now asking themselves the question "Is it Marek's?".

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
You're right, George. Sometimes finding no tumors really does need a PCR. Some professionals think they can stop at the microscope. I think a lot of it is some pros don't stay current on Marek's, but do stay current on some of the other thousand of illnesses being researched.

What about pathologists that discover a possible cause of death and look no further?

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
I think you're right about maybe needing to send blood for a PCR as a backup. I may end up doing that too. I don't care if they can't find any tumors. Do one anyway!!! This time I filled out what asked for specific tests I wanted.

I don't understand how anyone can sell Marek's resistant flock chickens? I'd first want to see their record keeping that they've kept at least 7 years. Oh, I could say my flock is Marek's resistant because the ones that are left are the resistant ones, LOL.

 

[speckledhen]

I think you're right about maybe needing to send blood for a PCR as a backup. I may end up doing that too. I don't care if they can't find any tumors. Do one anyway!!! This time I filled out what asked for specific tests I wanted.

I don't understand how anyone can sell Marek's resistant flock chickens? I'd first want to see their record keeping that they've kept at least 7 years. Oh, I could say my flock is Marek's resistant because the ones that are left are the resistant ones, LOL.

Yeah, these are resistant because they're alive! LOL. I'm not sure how they quantify that and since these "official" articles suggest buying MD-resistant stock, where would one go to find that stock? Unless the wording was just unfortunate and they actually meant buy breeds known to be more resistant.

 

[gjensen]

When it is important to you, you have to think for yourself.

I do not want to insert myself into the topic, but I assure you that I have had to do a lot of the legwork concerning my own condition. I have been startled by the lack of recognition of this condition. It is rare and it consists of overlapping rare disorders.
I assure you that I take no one's word for anything and I have been fortunate enough to deal with the country's top hospitals and top doctors. The system is a system. It can be a machine of sorts. Doctors are human, they have jobs, and go home and forget. We are the one's that have something at stake.

You can be certain that if you are not certain (satisfied), no one is certain.

We have to accept our limitations concerning testing, and accept them for what they are. There are matters where we have to settle, and manage the situation accordingly. I cannot settle because I and my family are at stake.

There is no equivalency between what I am describing and the topic, other than a couple points. You are not certain until you are, and the management of dealing with limitations.