Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[speckledhen]

Quote: One thing I don't really know is the ratio of free range forage is compared to what they are eating out of their feeders. Naturally, that will vary with the seasons. I suspect the protein percentage of their total in-house feeds, when you factor in the handfuls of the 12% grain mix they get in the morning and when they are called home from the property, considering the 16% layer pellets in the hanging feeders, would be maybe around 14.5-15%. I have about 41 adults and I use a medium size peanut butter jar full of scratch between all the flocks each morning, plus a tiny bit after shaking the jar to call them all back home. I have no way to calculate what they are eating in green forage.

I'm not a scientist nor am I a breeder. I have very little money to spend on tests and expensive feeds and supplements. I have to KISS. I can barely afford our own vitamins as it is. Put bluntly, I don't want a flock of diseased birds. I know that may sound harsh to some folks, but it's the way I feel (for me and my life situation).

All the flocks seems fine at the moment, other than the few adults who are out of sorts from their molts. If I'm going to keep chickens, I must have chickens that don't need to be coddled, chickens with strong immune systems. I don't mind caring for an older bird who has old age issues after she's given years of service to the family, like arthritic Amanda, or Caroline's crop massages to keep it moving along, but that's a different situation entirely.

 

[gjensen]

One thing I don't really know is the ratio of free range forage is compared to what they are eating out of their feeders. Naturally, that will vary with the seasons. I suspect the protein percentage of their total in-house feeds, when you factor in the handfuls of the 12% grain mix they get in the morning and when they are called home from the property, considering the 16% layer pellets in the hanging feeders, would be maybe around 14.5-15%. I have about 41 adults and I use a medium size peanut butter jar full of scratch between all the flocks each morning, plus a tiny bit after shaking the jar to call them all back home. I have no way to calculate what they are eating in green forage.

I'm not a scientist nor am I a breeder. I have very little money to spend on tests and expensive feeds and supplements. I have to KISS. I can barely afford our own vitamins as it is. Put bluntly, I don't want a flock of diseased birds. I know that may sound harsh to some folks, but it's the way I feel (for me and my life situation).

All the flocks seems fine at the moment, other than the few adults who are out of sorts from their molts. If I'm going to keep chickens, I must have chickens that don't need to be coddled, chickens with strong immune systems. I don't mind caring for an older bird who has old age issues after she's given years of service to the family, like arthritic Amanda, or Caroline's crop massages to keep it moving along, but that's a different situation entirely.

I feel similarly. A breeder ration is not necessary, but when we want more we cannot do any better. If we play with it from there, we get going the other way.
If I had reasonable access to the breeder ration that I did like, I would probably still be using it. That does not mean it is a requirement to keep healthy birds. I did have better hatchability and larger chicks with it. I get similar results by supplementing what I use during breeding season.
That your birds are allowed to range means a lot.

I do not want diseased birds either. I do not know what I would do if I developed a problem with Marek's. It would depend on what impact it had. Birds that get sick are never the same.
I have dodged saying it, but I will not question, wonder, anything over a bird that I thought might be sick. I do not keep them. It is a harsh view for some, so I try not to flaunt it.

I had my birds tested once. I had a scare after the catastrophe that I had. All was well, and meant to mention to you that mine tested MG free also. Of course I could not say that they were now. I only wanted to mention that I agree that it is a possibility.

The important thing is that they are healthy, and that we enjoy them. If I ever stop enjoying them then I will stop keeping them. Fortunately after all of these years, I have had only one bad episode.
We will never agree on every point, but we all must enjoy the birds.

 

[speckledhen]

I feel similarly. A breeder ration is not necessary, but when we want more we cannot do any better. If we play with it from there, we get going the other way.
If I had reasonable access to the breeder ration that I did like, I would probably still be using it. That does not mean it is a requirement to keep healthy birds. I did have better hatchability and larger chicks with it. I get similar results by supplementing what I use during breeding season.
That your birds are allowed to range means a lot.

I do not want diseased birds either. I do not know what I would do if I developed a problem with Marek's. It would depend on what impact it had. Birds that get sick are never the same.
I have dodged saying it, but I will not question, wonder, anything over a bird that I thought might be sick. I do not keep them. It is a harsh view for some, so I try not to flaunt it.

I had my birds tested once. I had a scare after the catastrophe that I had. All was well, and meant to mention to you that mine tested MG free also. Of course I could not say that they were now. I only wanted to mention that I agree that it is a possibility.

The important thing is that they are healthy, and that we enjoy them. If I ever stop enjoying them then I will stop keeping them. Fortunately after all of these years, I have had only one bad episode.
We will never agree on every point, but we all must enjoy the birds.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
OMG! Awesome! I'll read when I go to bed. I can't believe it. It's a 2012 paper!

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:

One thing I don't really know is the ratio of free range forage is compared to what they are eating out of their feeders. Naturally, that will vary with the seasons. I suspect the protein percentage of their total in-house feeds, when you factor in the handfuls of the 12% grain mix they get in the morning and when they are called home from the property, considering the 16% layer pellets in the hanging feeders, would be maybe around 14.5-15%. I have about 41 adults and I use a medium size peanut butter jar full of scratch between all the flocks each morning, plus a tiny bit after shaking the jar to call them all back home. I have no way to calculate what they are eating in green forage.

I'm not a scientist nor am I a breeder. I have very little money to spend on tests and expensive feeds and supplements. I have to KISS. I can barely afford our own vitamins as it is. Put bluntly, I don't want a flock of diseased birds. I know that may sound harsh to some folks, but it's the way I feel (for me and my life situation).

All the flocks seems fine at the moment, other than the few adults who are out of sorts from their molts. If I'm going to keep chickens, I must have chickens that don't need to be coddled, chickens with strong immune systems. I don't mind caring for an older bird who has old age issues after she's given years of service to the family, like arthritic Amanda, or Caroline's crop massages to keep it moving along, but that's a different situation entirely.

First off , how did I get to enteritis on a thread for breeding for Marek's resistance? I assume I have a Marek's flock that I haven't gotten a lab positive from yet. What it appears is that I"ve had "enteritis" poking it's head up here and there, and I'm wondering why the average bird has resistance from it, so what may be lowering my bird's resistance to enteritis.

From what I know, chickens can live happily carrying a Marek's exposure that never gets symptomatic, but it is known to still affect the immune system in general. Is enteritis showing up due to Marek's and it's affect on the immune system?

If my chickens appear to be prone to enteritis in some way, a diet change can help. Otherwise they would get Layer and treats. So off to bed and to read that article from Trident's post.

 

[chooks4life]

My point was missed. I was pointing out the shift of attitudes between now and then. You are right. There is a difference between surviving and thriving.

I think you are being unrealistic about our birds ability to be resistant to everything. It just is not going to happen. Such birds have never existed and never will exist.

My point was missed as well, lol... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

There is more than one way to measure efficiency, but if we measure efficiency by pounds of feed consumed, we will never reach the level of efficiency that commercial strains have. Their entire model is based on such. Like them or not like them, what they have achieved is quite remarkable. It is not perception, it is reality. Generally speaking a 5lb hen is going to eat what a 5lb hen eats. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 4oz. per day. What she provides for that 4oz. per day is a different story.

In order to truly know that, you'd need to actually keep mongrels. It's nowhere near what you're stating, in reality; that's the commercial ideal, but commercial breeds I've owned have not lived up to it. I expect some, somewhere, do far better than the ones I had, but still, it's not anything worth the reputation they have.

Best wishes.

 

[speckledhen]

I'm not sure about the enteritis in your flock, Karen. Never had to deal with it. I almost think of it as "cocci gone wild", though that may be inaccurate. If whole wheat helps, the 11 grain scratch my flocks get on a daily basis contains probably two types of wheat. I'm not good at ID'ing grains. There is always the whole kernel corn, the little popcorn and sunflower seeds, the animal protein bits, I think barley, milo, couple types of wheat, etc. This has been my scratch for most of the time I've had chickens. Before that, I used a 5 grain scratch, but this is more bang for the buck. It costs me $14.50 / 50# at the county co-op. Here is a photo of it, though from time to time, the formulation changes slightly, sometimes a bit more corn, sometimes I see peas or even white millet in there:




I'm adding this short article to our "pile 'o links" on the subject: http://ec.europa.eu/research/infocentre/export/success/article_693_en.html

Here is a blurb from it:
Quote:

 

[seminolewind]

Cynthia, the article was how to increase the chances of enteritis

It's not really understood. But it seems that rye and wheat are good for growing clostridium (enteritis bacteria). Even tho cocci damage can leave an intestine vulnerable to clostridium, the method of allowing of clostridium causing enteritis is not fully understood. It may be that some foods are harder to digest and stay longer in the small intestine.

Tylan is one of the meds that can treat enteritis.

I bought a bag of 30% manna chicken show bird/flock or game and will mix it 5/1. I should get better protein that way. I don't want to go too high. It's just I'm trying to improve the quality of feed to combat the lower amt of antibodies my chickens may have. Who knows?

 

[speckledhen]

Cynthia, the article was how to increase the chances of enteritis

It's not really understood. But it seems that rye and wheat are good for growing clostridium (enteritis bacteria). Even tho cocci damage can leave an intestine vulnerable to clostridium, the method of allowing of clostridium causing enteritis is not fully understood. It may be that some foods are harder to digest and stay longer in the small intestine.

Tylan is one of the meds that can treat enteritis.

I bought a bag of 30% manna chicken show bird/flock or game and will mix it 5/1. I should get better protein that way. I don't want to go too high. It's just I'm trying to improve the quality of feed to combat the lower amt of antibodies my chickens may have. Who knows?

How did I miss that? I didn't read the whole thing is why, took the assumption from a statement someone made, I guess. But, grains are natural feeds of birds, and it also says animal proteins cause problems. That's the part I read, the animal protein part. WHAT the heck ELSE can they eat other than grains or animal proteins? Rilly, geez. So, I've been feeding this scratch grain, which is higher in protein, for all these years, including animal protein and several types of wheat and NO necrotic enteritis. To me, the whole thing about wheat and animal proteins seems counter-intuitive.

Maybe we just don't have natural birds anymore. Never had any enteritis here that I know of and I think I'd know that, from the symptoms. I wonder, just wonder, how much monkeying around with our chicken breeds has caused issues with feeds that would never have been an issue before humans altered their genetics. My brain is swirling right about now with so many things, I can't even tell you.

 

[welasharon]

I didn't like feeding my birds processed pellets or crumbles so I went to mixing a feed. I use a gamecock conditioner as my base. 5 scoops of it, one scoop of pigeon feed (real seeds and such) and I do put a 3/4 scoop of layer pellet in case they need it (although I they leave a good bit of it) some old fashioned oatmeal shook in, some cayenne pepper and crushed egg shells. I have been feeding this now for a bit over three years and they seem to be doing fine. I have been thinking of adding more vitamins but have not had time to figure out what to add.