Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[speckledhen]

Hope it goes well. It's a pointless and harmful vanity for breeders to take it personally when someone says something that suggests their animals are less than perfect; no breeder in their right mind truly believes they have perfected a strain of anything, surely.

I wish there were a little more commonsense around such topics, it's always disappointing to hear that some customer in genuine need of information got the sharp edge of the tongue from some egotistical breeder. In my opinion, the breeder is under an ethical obligation to freely supply customers with information about known genetic or other problems in their lines. Suspected problems are always worth mentioning too.

Good luck with extracting info without hitting the ego vein.

I just sent her an email. I just want to see if she can help me solve a mystery. I mean, really, the longer I have chickens, the more bizarre stuff I see that I never expected to see. It has to be the same with all folks who keep them for any length of time. And so much of it is beyond our control, no matter how much of a control freak we are! I never knowingly send off a bird with any issues and I don't have a feeling that she would, either. But, if she found some genetic component in her flocks from that time, it might help me go "a-ha!".

It's like my Delaware hen with the dwarf gene. The breeder I got them from never saw any dwarfs from them, but she'd combined lines to create her current line she had when she sent me eggs. You never know what will happen when you combine two lines/strains of birds. I would always tell people about Georgie's genetic issue and the chance of a dwarf, knowing it was a debilitating type of dwarfism (not just a small bird, mind you). I had quit sending out her eggs, unless someone wanted to take a chance on her. I have a son of hers now that is definitely not suffering from it, healthy and huge. Does he carry the gene? I don't know. Probably would never express anyway unless you bred him with a close relative carrying it as well, though genetic testing found that one hen I had carried a DOUBLE copy of it! Who'd think something like that? But, again, you never know what you'd encounter with chicken genetics.

 

[chooks4life]

I just sent her an email. I just want to see if she can help me solve a mystery. I mean, really, the longer I have chickens, the more bizarre stuff I see that I never expected to see. It has to be the same with all folks who keep them for any length of time.

Agree, seems the more you know, the more you realize how much more is out there...

And so much of it is beyond our control, no matter how much of a control freak we are! I never knowingly send off a bird with any issues and I don't have a feeling that she would, either.

I doubt she deliberately gave you duds, I know some breeders do, but most are smart enough to know that crap will follow you for life. I suspect the breeder who gave me the duds thought it was harmless because I was so new to chooks at the time... I've seen quite a few breeders who seem to manage to justify giving duds to newbies just fine, they don't lose sleep over it. They probably think since we're newbies, we'll lose them to basic diseases or mismanagement sooner rather than later and the birds won't get a chance to die of inherited problems, and we'll never correctly identify what happened, or something like that.

But, if she found some genetic component in her flocks from that time, it might help me go "a-ha!".

Yeah, that's the hopeful outcome. Even many years after starting keeping them I'm still having 'aha' moments about things I saw right back at the beginning. More knowledge, hindsight, etc all changes everything. You just can't see everything 100% while you're in it, another reason why animal journals or records are so, so important. I expect after the time elapsed, your breeder may have had some minor epiphanies, since that seems to be the way it goes.

Might be worth trying to trace where she got her bloodlines from too, unless she's had them for enough decades for it to be a probably moot point.

It's like my Delaware hen with the dwarf gene. The breeder I got them from never saw any dwarfs from them, but she'd combined lines to create her current line she had when she sent me eggs. You never know what will happen when you combine two lines/strains of birds.

Very good point, one that is often forgotten and dismissed when discussing strange results.

I would always tell people about Georgie's genetic issue and the chance of a dwarf, knowing it was a debilitating type of dwarfism (not just a small bird, mind you). I had quit sending out her eggs, unless someone wanted to take a chance on her. I have a son of hers now that is definitely not suffering from it, healthy and huge. Does he carry the gene? I don't know. Probably would never express anyway unless you bred him with a close relative carrying it as well, though genetic testing found that one hen I had carried a DOUBLE copy of it! Who'd think something like that? But, again, you never know what you'd encounter with chicken genetics.

Well, good on you for trying to make the risks obvious. I've talked some people's ears off about risks when they're taking some of my birds, most people just don't really care about it, and in future if someone wants any birds from me but doesn't seem inclined/educated enough to pay due attention to the risks, I'll tell them to go get theirs from a hatchery instead.

Best wishes.

 

[speckledhen]

Quote: That is so true! It amazes me how much we don't know, and just when you think you've seen it all, BLAM! We get another puzzler.


These Buffs were hatched from eggs sent through the mail, so not started birds. I don't get started birds, as Karen has told everyone. Hatching eggs help mitigate some disease risks, but certainly not genetic ones. And they can float beneath the surface and come out when you least expect it. I hope she has something to offer that might help solve the mystery, but if not, then it will probably remain a mystery. Never had anything come down like with those two sisters.

 

[tridentk9]

Hmm, the idea of breeding for resistance has been around for a few years.

Asmundson V. S., Biely J. 1932. Inheritance of resistance to fowl paralysis (neurolymphomatosis gallinarum). I. Differences in susceptibility. Can. J. Res. 6:171–176

By the time you add a difference in feed, housing, supplements, recombination of alleles, epigenetics, polyphenism, the wind and sun, butterflies in Peru, hatch time of year, etc anything can happen.

I like the John Donne quote and the application to disease, very pertinent.

among my many shelves and stacks of books I've only ever had one book of poetry- John Donne.

 

[seminolewind]

seminolewind;

I must be tired. IWhat does PCR mean " I hope you get that Marek's PCR to cover NON symptoms". Could you explain it to me so I know what you meant?
thanks!

and I've been reading that mareks can leave the chicken with a depressed immune system, and stress will cause something to flare up, like cocci, and leave the chicken unable to combat it.

I'm going to have to start keeping better track of who had what symptoms, etc. I keep a pretty good eye on the flock, but some work weeks I am leaving before they are up, and back home after they roost, so there are sometimes 4 or 5 days when I am not really seeing them.

and Speckledhen, so sorry about your buff orp.

I would like to leave the PCR info for Nambroth because she has more information than I do, and I worry about passing on incorrect information. I know that there can be false negatives , but false positives are rare. A PCR is one test that may pick up an exposure that is not seen by a pathologist .

From what some of us have read or found, Marek's not being the only one to depress an immune system, but I've had more coccidiosis , a few necrotic enteritis (dropping dead no symptoms except a dead bird who bled out), a few of mine seemed to get a one eye infection, look sick, and die before I could start treatment. With the enteritis, now I will treat forever for coccidiosis and enteritis together with Corid and Tylan, which can be given together. These were all under 10 weeks old.

I should start a notebook as well. I think I can put most of it together with the dates on pictures.

I know with work it can be real hard to see your chickens, but sometimes I can run out there in my pajamas and a flashlight and just eyeball them quick.

 

[seminolewind]

My eggs in the past hatched really well for the hand delivered ones, and really poorly for the mailed ones. So I stopped sending eggs.

 

[gjensen]

I like the John Donne quote and the application to disease, very pertinent.

About the complexity of resistance to MD, I think it needs more investigating, because many vets, hatcheries etc find it comparatively quite easy to breed for resistance, and hence recommend it; I found it decidedly easy myself.

If it's so theoretically complicated, how do the results occur so fast? Thus far they've remained reliable and it's been years since I had a case, despite them being introduced to new flocks from other states of Australia fairly regularly... Others also found their results occurred rapidly too.

I wish we had some island somewhere, a remote one, possibly even an artificial one, where we could deliberately infect birds with all these diseases we're trying to compare and evaluate; that way we'd know for sure that a chook had been infected with current American, UK, Australian, Asian (etc) strains of MDV, for example.

I need to find a good vet and get my birds tested as soon as is feasible (moving house AGAIN lol)... Came across one that does great genetic testing, affordably, in my area, so hopefully I'll get some concrete info soon. Well, soon-ish... Got a lot on my plate right now. As do we all, I'm sure.

@lalaland - sorry for your loss and welcome to the thread.

@speckledhen - Were they 'hatchery type' Buff Orps or from a decent breeder?

Best wishes to all.

A lot of vets and hatcheries do not breed birds, and have no practical experience on the matter. It is easy to recommend and in theory. There are no especially resistant hatchery strains if that says anything.
What many vets may not realize is that it is a rare case where an actual experienced breeder takes their birds to the vet.

I do not want to continue this part of our debate endlessly, but I think it is helpful for the reader to understand what is involved. It does require an organized thoughtful process, it requires a large time commitment, and the ability and willingness to withstand real losses. Even then a 100% resistant flock will be elusive. The majority of people getting into poultry today are not wiling to do that.

Anyone that says that it is easy, has not done it.

It is not especially complex, just requires a real commitment and a stomach for it. It is also not as if it has not been done countless times. There is a huge body of work on the subject dating back to the 20s-30s. There was a lot of work done on it in the 40s-50s. The creation and popularity of vaccines quieted a lot of it down. Now most truly resistant flocks are found in research centers. It is just a matter of insuring even exposure, killing symptomatic birds, proving the parents by way of their offspring, and selecting symptomatic individuals that came from non symptomatic individuals and had the best % of un symptomatic offspring.

It all depends on birds that you start with and what you are dealing with. If you start with a strain that has a good degree of resistance, it may mean that you will just lose a couple birds here and there.

The more traits selected for, the longer it takes to make substantial progress.

You and I possibly would agree on one point, and that is I think we would have been better off had the vaccine never been made. Economically we would have suffered large losses, but we would have been better for it in the long run. We would have worked through our problems along the way. Even if we had lost some breeds in the process.

I will repeat that many pre hatchery breeders that bred birds in large numbers bred for resistance on a certain level. These were actual breeders. The APA was the poultry industry of that day. They were willing to withstand small losses within their own flocks, rather than sell highly susceptible fowl. Their reputation depended on it. Still for them losses of 10% and 20% on a bad year were acceptable.
Many long term breeders in the States will not tolerate a sick bird of any sort within their flock(s). Some of these strains will show a reasonable degree of resistance to the strain(s) that they have been exposed to. Some of these strains of birds have been or have beginnings from strains that have been bred in this manner for over 100 years. You will not get these birds from a hatchery, or from some back yard mix breeds, or propagators. You now that it requires staying the course.

Unfortunately today, these strains are much less common. Their is a changing of the guard so to speak. We live in different times. Also many of these strains are found within breeds that are not especially popular, which is ironic. Many strains show some level of resistance. Some are highly susceptible.

I do wish that I had the resources to take on a number of projects like this. It would be interesting to do. There is no economic incentive to do it because there is not enough demand to pay for it.

 

[gjensen]

Hope it goes well. It's a pointless and harmful vanity for breeders to take it personally when someone says something that suggests their animals are less than perfect; no breeder in their right mind truly believes they have perfected a strain of anything, surely.

I wish there were a little more commonsense around such topics, it's always disappointing to hear that some customer in genuine need of information got the sharp edge of the tongue from some egotistical breeder. In my opinion, the breeder is under an ethical obligation to freely supply customers with information about known genetic or other problems in their lines. Suspected problems are always worth mentioning too.

Good luck with extracting info without hitting the ego vein.

Fortunately many are open with information. Every long term experienced breeder that I have communicated with is open, and they are secured in their accomplishments. Usually they will talk more about what is wrong with their birds rather than what is right. They are open with the problems that they have, or have had. They have been around long enough to know that breeding and keeping poultry is not always so simple.

Newcomers tend to be blinded by their enthusiasm, and are figuring things out themselves.

Unfortunately many supposed breeders do not know what is what within their flock. We have a lot of those here in the States. People that buy nice birds, and begin propagating them. Running them into the ground and selling weak sickly birds that are barely nice birds anymore. The uneducated individuals are more problematic.
This board is full of inexperienced individuals getting birds from inexperienced people with a poor approach to managing their birds, and paying for it.

It can be difficult to get birds from some breeders because they do not like dealing with the public on that level. Dealing with the public means dealing with all types. Some people will blame you for all kinds of silliness.

 

[seminolewind]

Maybe recommendations go a long way with how hardy their breeding line is.

 

[lalaland]

I would like to leave the PCR info for Nambroth because she has more information than I do, and I worry about passing on incorrect information. I know that there can be false negatives , but false positives are rare. A PCR is one test that may pick up an exposure that is not seen by a pathologist .

From what some of us have read or found, Marek's not being the only one to depress an immune system, but I've had more coccidiosis , a few necrotic enteritis (dropping dead no symptoms except a dead bird who bled out), a few of mine seemed to get a one eye infection, look sick, and die before I could start treatment. With the enteritis, now I will treat forever for coccidiosis and enteritis together with Corid and Tylan, which can be given together. These were all under 10 weeks old.

I should start a notebook as well. I think I can put most of it together with the dates on pictures.

I know with work it can be real hard to see your chickens, but sometimes I can run out there in my pajamas and a flashlight and just eyeball them quick.

I do check them with a flashlight when I get home, but the subtle signs of illness don't show up that way.

About coccidiosis and enteritis---I would love to know what symptoms you would see that would trigger the dosing with corid and tylan?