Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[speckledhen]

Just remember, anyone aside from the pathologist says, anything else said or posted is possibly an educated guess, preceeded by maybe, possibly, unlikely, looks like, etc.

Read here to learn about the illness. I'm sure anyone's guess here would only lead to "get a necropsy". Nobody here can diagnose Mareks' without a microscope and pcr test . Maybe we should chip in and set Nambroth up, LOL. I think we listen to a member and guide them to the possibilities and what to do now.

You got your prelims and now have to wait for the final report. If it's negative, I would from now on vaccinate all incoming chicks, and no birds taken in, and if it's positive I would from now on vaccinate all incoming chicks and no birds taken in.

No matter what, do this

and this

and this

and this

now, but never do this

or this

or this

or this

.

And no matter what the outcome is do this

and do this

(educate), and vaccinate this

and think this

about this

.

Very, very excellent advice, dear friend. I'm still on the fence about vaccination for consumers being effective after what the state vet in GA and the Univ of KY said about what is available to us-they both said they have very limited affect. In fact, the UK vet said it was crap, his word. None of my birds were ever vaccinated, other than I think two pullets I had from Mt. Healthy hatchery via a local feed store were Marek's vaccinated, I believe. I sold them because they were too small at 18 weeks old age, not up to par with the big hens in that coop and I just wanted to go a different route. They were in the group with the two hens in question. Brings up the question of shedding from vaccinated birds again....hmm. We've been told it doesn't happen. If that is not entirely correct....

If the two hens were positive--I would only know for sure about the second one providing the final report is definitive, and have to project about the first one from there- then I have asked myself what I would do in the future since I have ceased to breed much anymore. I only have rehomed extras in the last few years and incubated specifically for a certain person who picked chicks up from my livingroom, which I guess I could still do.

Every bird here would have to pass away. We have been thinking of building a coop in a completely different location for ease of maintenance in winter anyway. I might consider eventually repopulating with some hatchery Brahma and Partridge Rock pullets from Meyer who are hatchery-vaccinated, just so I could have layers (and pets, of course, they're all pets)

The hardest part with this new situation would be the broodies. I have broody breeds, my heritage Rock hen, Dottie, always wants to brood. The Belgian D'Anvers want to brood constantly. My 1/2 BW Ameraucana hen, Maretta, wants to raise chicks two or three times each year. And there may be others who jump on that bandwagon. What can I do with those? It's near impossible to break some of them. If you want chicks out of the flock the first few weeks, that doesn't happen with a broody. BUT, then again, I've not once had an issue with any chicks or youngsters here, though anything can change at any time, I realize.

ETA: and just as I'm dealing with this, I encounter a new breed I really am intrigued with. What great timing.

I love those Auburn Javas with Mottleds a close second.

And I added this caveat to my Quarantine thread:


Quote:

 

[speckledhen]

Found an article I had not seen before with the perspective of another doctor. Excellent article, pertinent to the title of the thread here.

http://www.birdhealth.com.au/flockbirds/poultry/diseases/mareks_disease.html

Here is an excerpt that, once again, makes me wonder what the heck is going on with my two hens:

Quote: If my girl did have it, then I think my flock may be one for the veterinary journals, one of the rarest cases on the planet. Makes no sense. No paralysis, no pale comb/wattles, no young birds showing any symptoms of any kind. Where is a head shaking smiley?

An interesting excerpt for me as well:

Quote:

 

[seminolewind]

The last batch I vaccinated: 7 chicks vaccinated. Three weeks later 7 vaccinated again , and new batch of 5 vaccinated x1.

The seven chicks: 3 died of entiritis (no symptoms but blood ran out when I picked them up)
2 more oddly died with a one eye infection a few weeks later.
1 lived in my bdrm with paralysis for 6 weeks and became healthy again. (alive)
1 rooster (alive)

The batch of 5 chicks: 2 euthanized at 2 yrs old for wing walking, wasting, and loss of depth perception
1 rooster living
1 rooster recently flipped over and died
1 skinny Polish named "Mangia" cause I'm always telling her to eat.

So while the batch of double vaccinated chicks under 3 months old seem to have had a poor immunity , and my 1x vaccinated had 2 Marek's like symptoms birds.

With your broodies, you may want to test the water and quarantine hen and chicks for the first few months, or do anything to limit exposure to the flock. Seems to me that concentration of the virus plays a role.
The vaccination that us common people are limited to, I won't say it does not work. It does not work as well. But with Marek's it's not only the vaccination. It's limiting what they are exposed to. Home vaccinated birds should have a longer quarantine, like 12 weeks if possible. Some Europeans vaccinate twice , 3 weeks apart.

The vaccination is known to prevent symptoms when used with 2 other factors; disinfection, and all in all out (which to me translates to the backyard flock owner to practice having the least amount of exposure to others for as long as they can).
So although the vaccine may be weak, it is still possible to get a good result with it.

And always be on the lookout for opportunistic infections like coccidiosis , etc.

Speckledhen, re the excerpts from the Saif book, sometimes you can find more information if you look for the contributors to the book such as Karel Shat.

 

[ChickCrazed]

Hi all, I don't know if I ever posted my story here, but I have been following for a while.

About five months ago I had a 3.5 month old cockerel go down with paralysis. A couple of weeks later I had a similarly aged pullet die of coccidosis. She was sent for a necropsy and did not have any sign of Mareks. She had no lesions or tumors. After 3 weeks of nursing the cockerel I had him euthanized and brought him to Purdue for a necropsy. Results were inconclusive but they did no actual testing for Mareks other than by "sight". They thought it might be Mareks, but no actual test confirmed it so to me it was not conclusive. He did not have any lesions or tumors to explain paralysis and they could not give me an answer when I asked what cause his paralysis. I really do feel that they are lazy and go to the obvious diagnosis when confronted with paralysis. The two 3 month olds that originally died were in a group of 16 that included a couple of silkies (healthy as horses even though that breed is supposedly more prone to the disease). After five more months I have no other signs of paralysis, no wasting from any other bird, but a couple of weeks ago I did have one randomly dead one morning. I had another of the original group die of coccidosis a few days ago. I know coccidosis often occurs with birds with Mareks, but being an opportunistic disease I would think it could be brought on by other stressors as well.

After I got my non-results from Purdue I had a persistant broody hen and decided to let her hatch a few chicks as a kind of "canary in the mine shaft" test. I figured if the babies survived my odds of having Mareks were less, and if they did not it would be a confirmation. The 3 babies are now about 3 months old and have had no signs of the disease.

I am in a bit of a similar situation to some of y'all where I have had some signs that could possibly point to yes, but still not enough to know for sure. It really is frustrating that even when paying for a necropsy you won't ever know for sure. Up until the last couple of mysterious deaths I was believing that I did not have Mareks, and still don't know for sure since I have not really had a single "classic" case and even with necropsies had no real sign of trouble. I feel for everyone else struggling with the disease.

 

[speckledhen]

ChickCrazed, thank you for joining our thread! I feel your frustration, as you probably have read. Everyone who contributes a story that is out of the norm I do believe helps "flesh out" the information on MD.

Quote: In my opinion, a sight test for Marek's is no more than a guess. That isn't good enough for me.


As far as cocci goes, cocci in chicks 4-8 weeks of age is not unusual here in Georgia, especially if we are having a very wet period when the chicks are that age during that time. Most of the chicks with broodies do not get it unless it is very, very rainy and doesn't get a chance to dry out for a long period. I have never experienced cocci in adult birds here.

 

[ChickCrazed]

ChickCrazed, thank you for joining our thread! I feel your frustration, as you probably have read. Everyone who contributes a story that is out of the norm I do believe helps "flesh out" the information on MD.

In my opinion, a sight test for Marek's is no more than a guess. That isn't good enough for me.


As far as cocci goes, cocci in chicks 4-8 weeks of age is not unusual here in Georgia, especially if we are having a very wet period when the chicks are that age during that time. Most of the chicks with broodies do not get it unless it is very, very rainy and doesn't get a chance to dry out for a long period. I have never experienced cocci in adult birds here.

Yes, I was very surprised by the cocci both times since they were past the "danger age". The last one I did not necropsy and it might not have actually been cocci. We had a 35 degree temperature drop which is why i thought she was all puffed up (although at the time I thought it might have been cocci because all the other birds were acting normal). Sure enough she was dead the next morning. I think it would have been too late to treat it anyway. We have had a very wet year, so maybe it was just genetic weakness combined with more parasites from the wet earth. Or maybe it is Mareks or another underlying disease.

 

[ChickCrazed]

The last batch I vaccinated: 7 chicks vaccinated. Three weeks later 7 vaccinated again , and new batch of 5 vaccinated x1.

The seven chicks: 3 died of entiritis (no symptoms but blood ran out when I picked them up)
2 more oddly died with a one eye infection a few weeks later.
1 lived in my bdrm with paralysis for 6 weeks and became healthy again. (alive)
1 rooster (alive)

The batch of 5 chicks: 2 euthanized at 2 yrs old for wing walking, wasting, and loss of depth perception
1 rooster living
1 rooster recently flipped over and died
1 skinny Polish named "Mangia" cause I'm always telling her to eat.

So while the batch of double vaccinated chicks under 3 months old seem to have had a poor immunity , and my 1x vaccinated had 2 Marek's like symptoms birds.

With your broodies, you may want to test the water and quarantine hen and chicks for the first few months, or do anything to limit exposure to the flock. Seems to me that concentration of the virus plays a role.
The vaccination that us common people are limited to, I won't say it does not work. It does not work as well. But with Marek's it's not only the vaccination. It's limiting what they are exposed to. Home vaccinated birds should have a longer quarantine, like 12 weeks if possible. Some Europeans vaccinate twice , 3 weeks apart.

The vaccination is known to prevent symptoms when used with 2 other factors; disinfection, and all in all out (which to me translates to the backyard flock owner to practice having the least amount of exposure to others for as long as they can).
So although the vaccine may be weak, it is still possible to get a good result with it.

And always be on the lookout for opportunistic infections like coccidiosis , etc.

Speckledhen, re the excerpts from the Saif book, sometimes you can find more information if you look for the contributors to the book such as Karel Shat.

You mention a couple chicks dying after an eye infection. Can you describe what the infection looked like? I did have a couple of chicks come in with slightly suspect eyes. They were from trusted sources and I figured it was dust or a peck, but their eyes had/have never completely cleared up. One of them was one of the ones to die. I wonder if that could explain a possible source of outbreak, although if that is true I fear for many others since this breeder has moved a TON of chicks and birds this year!

 

[speckledhen]

Yes, I was very surprised by the cocci both times since they were past the "danger age". The last one I did not necropsy and it might not have actually been cocci. We had a 35 degree temperature drop which is why i thought she was all puffed up (although at the time I thought it might have been cocci because all the other birds were acting normal). Sure enough she was dead the next morning. I think it would have been too late to treat it anyway. We have had a very wet year, so maybe it was just genetic weakness. Or maybe it is Mareks or another underlying disease.

There are numerous things that can be wrong with a chicken, and especially laying hens. They are prone to cancerous tumors of the ovaries and oviduct anyway, so now, you have a chicken with tumors and someone wants to sight diagnose?

I have not heard back from the vet yet or gotten a final necropsy report. Maybe after my email, he's doing more testing. I can hope, I guess.

 

[ChickCrazed]

There are numerous things that can be wrong with a chicken, and especially laying hens. They are prone to cancerous tumors of the ovaries and oviduct anyway, so now, you have a chicken with tumors and someone wants to sight diagnose?

I have not heard back from the vet yet or gotten a final necropsy report. Maybe after my email, he's doing more testing. I can hope, I guess.

Very true!!! It is like how almost anything "has been known to cause cancer in white rats". But white rats are already known for dying of cancer....hmmmmmm.......

I hope you get some closure. I certainly never did. I chased Purdue for 10 days and never once had them call me or give me an answer. I asked them to run a PCR and the vet I talked to said no one did them. I told her two different labs (from this thread) that do run PCRs and she said she would look into it....never looked into it and it was never done. A week later I received a packet in the mail and no vet ever actually talked to me or explained the results. I was furious and was going to write a very wordy letter to someone important at Purdue once I got the bill....never got a bill. Strange, but at least I didn't pay for crappy service! I certainly hope you get an answer I never did.

 

[seminolewind]

ChickCrazed , I remember seeing one of your posts way back on this thread. Sounds like the way it started with me. I bought one pullet and added her to a closed flock. A month or two later, my 18 month old roo came down with all the classic symptoms, and was erroneously dx'd with EEE. Since that time, I had a chicken waste away and die every few months. I had several hatches with no problems. Never suspected Marek's and never had chicks die. Until I lost a whole hatch about 4 years ago. All one by one, paralysis, and no depth perception and wasting.

Seems with some of these labs you have to specifically ask them to test for Marek's as well. I think many of them see no tumors and don't go any further. You can always send live bird blood for PCR testing. (Texas A&M). I have not heard great things about Perdue's testing, for one thing I've heard it's expensive, and there doesn't seem to be any other option in that state.

Most Marek's positive have wasting. For really no reason. Either they don't eat enough, or they look like they're eating and are not really picking up anything. Some of mine seem to just peck the ground around the feeder, which is odd. It's almost like they are hungry, but won't or can't eat.

I would not give up trying different things like vitamins. I would not give up looking for "look a like" illnesses.