Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[rancher hicks]

I agree with Eggcessive. I use Corid when a rare case of cocci pops up in chicks during a protracted wet period. It is amprolium, a thiamine analog. It messes with the B vitamin that the oocysts that cause cocci feed off of and you only give it for 5 days. Not an antibiotic at all. I've never needed to treat adults, though. Usually, by 12 weeks they are immune to the varieties that are in their soil and unless exposed to a new strain they've never encountered, they shouldn't fall prey to it as adults. I suppose it could happen when the immune systems are severely compromised, as with Marek's or other serious diseases.

I have heard of people breeding for resistance to cocci, however, those are some hard and, to me, truly unnecessary losses since they do develop natural immunity even if treated for a bout of it as chicks.

Is Corid a brand name? I've never used anything like ti and I'm not sure I'd know a case of Cocci if I had one. I worm as a precaution and use DE regularly when cleaning for mites if there ever are any. I can't really say I've noticed them either.

Truth? I have a sick pullet. Not one from my lines. I got hatching eggs and it's one of them. I don't know what is wrong and it's just her.

Usually if I lose a bird it's just one that presents or I find dead with no visible symptoms. Not often mind you.

 

[speckledhen]

Is Corid a brand name? I've never used anything like ti and I'm not sure I'd know a case of Cocci if I had one. I worm as a precaution and use DE regularly when cleaning for mites if there ever are any. I can't really say I've noticed them either.

Truth? I have a sick pullet. Not one from my lines. I got hatching eggs and it's one of them. I don't know what is wrong and it's just her.

Usually if I lose a bird it's just one that presents or I find dead with no visible symptoms. Not often mind you.

Tim, Corid is concentrated amprolium, which is the ingredient in medicated chick starter. Yes, it is a brand name. It's also called Amprol and Cocci-Rid. The meds in chick starter are for combating coccidiosis, however, they truly don't do much so I no longer use medicated starter and if a case of cocci, which is very common with chicks in the south, pops up, I treat as needed. Chicks with broodies rarely get it because they pick at mom's poop and she is already immune, plus they are on the ground sooner than most brooder raised chicks. Coccidiosis is not a big deal, usually easily treatable. It's similar to an intestinal malady like giardia.

Wormers and DE have nothing to do with coccidiosis, which is caused by organisms in the soil called oocysts. You would notice a chick suffering from cocci, if nothing else, by the bloody poop or by their hunched up, cold appearance. As I said, by the time they are older chicks, they are usually immune to it.

I want to add that some will tell you it's a management issue. Baloney. It can be if you keep a pig sty coop, but it's one of those things that just happens because it's in the soil and if you have three weeks of rain and chicks 4-8 weeks old on the ground, you'll probably deal with it eventually, especially if you've had chickens on that soil for many years.

 

[rancher hicks]

I did lose two of the chicks Frenchy had hatched but they were very young. This pullet is about 20 weeks old. This has happened before with eggs or chicks I've gotten from outside.

With chicks I hatch I used medicated feed for the first few weeks. Broody hatched chicks as you've said get help from mom and I have read that.

This pullet was broody hatched from outside eggs, so I doubt it's cocci, but it's frustrating when so many things present the same way. With her she seems chilled and her tail is hanging. She seems to be eating, though I've been giving her eye droppers of water with Terramycin. I figure it can't hurt.

 

[gjensen]

I agree with Eggcessive. I use Corid when a rare case of cocci pops up in chicks during a protracted wet period. It is amprolium, a thiamine analog. It messes with the B vitamin that the oocysts that cause cocci feed off of and you only give it for 5 days. Not an antibiotic at all. I've never needed to treat adults, though. Usually, by 12 weeks they are immune to the varieties that are in their soil and unless exposed to a new strain they've never encountered, they shouldn't fall prey to it as adults. I suppose it could happen when the immune systems are severely compromised, as with Marek's or other serious diseases.

I have heard of people breeding for resistance to cocci, however, those are some hard and, to me, truly unnecessary losses since they do develop natural immunity even if treated for a bout of it as chicks.

I would treat for cocci myself. There is no breeding for resistance (LOL). It is possible to breed for tolerance, because it is a parasite. I am playing with words again, but you get what I am trying to say. Any bird would succumb with a high enough load. That lad is difficult to quantify.

You manage it like you would worms, mites, and lice. When it comes to mites, lice, and worms . . .I care about what is effective. Not whether or not it is natural. I do what I can to limit the use, but I do not intend to push the birds to their limits. Otherwise the load builds on the poultry yard, and every bird on the planet has a limit to the burden at some point.

I had mites get going with my birds this year. I handle them semi regularly. If I find one bird with one mite or louse, I treat them all. For a reason, I was not handling them as frequently, and when I did I had an actual start to an infestation. It was interesting to note that in a given pen, that a single bird would have more than the rest. I did mark those birds. I did not cull them but I will know when I set my pens up. If all else is equal, I may not use them.

There is value in not breeding the most vulnerable birds. These birds can be considered less fit. It is difficult to know why they succumbed and others did not.

 

[speckledhen]

I did lose two of the chicks Frenchy had hatched but they were very young. This pullet is about 20 weeks old. This has happened before with eggs or chicks I've gotten from outside.

With chicks I hatch I used medicated feed for the first few weeks. Broody hatched chicks as you've said get help from mom and I have read that.

This pullet was broody hatched from outside eggs, so I doubt it's cocci, but it's frustrating when so many things present the same way. With her she seems chilled and her tail is hanging. She seems to be eating, though I've been giving her eye droppers of water with Terramycin. I figure it can't hurt.

About the 20 week old, Tim. I dunno. I had one Delaware pullet die suddenly of a heart condition at about 24 weeks old. She was about to come in to lay and I guess it was too much strain on her heart. It pretty much imploded, poor thing. Coming into lay can bring underlying issues to the surface.

 

[chooks4life]

Going the natural route has nothing to do with foregoing medicating animals --- it just means you need to learn what the natural medications are, and use them instead of artificial ones. Nobody should 'go the natural route' if they don't understand at least something about natural disease control in wild animals and how they can replicate this in domesticity.

Unfortunately many people think going naturally or organically means not treating.

If you don't know how to treat naturally, do it artificially/conventionally, and don't feel bad about it. We do what we have to do with what we know and what we can access.

In my earlier years I used conventional wormers and so forth until I knew how to replace them naturally. By the time I got chooks, I knew how to control things well enough to not use anything artificial/conventional on them. Raw garlic works 100% against cocci, I've never had a single case of coccidiosis. Some might think 'well, you probably did, but misidentified it' --- but I didn't have disease deaths in chicks, nor sick chicks, ever; that is, until I got MD and Leukosis in some family lines, when I lost a few to that.

Best wishes.

 

[speckledhen]

I would treat for cocci myself. There is no breeding for resistance (LOL). It is possible to breed for tolerance, because it is a parasite. I am playing with words again, but you get what I am trying to say. Any bird would succumb with a high enough load. That lad is difficult to quantify.

You manage it like you would worms, mites, and lice. When it comes to mites, lice, and worms . . .I care about what is effective. Not whether or not it is natural. I do what I can to limit the use, but I do not intend to push the birds to their limits. Otherwise the load builds on the poultry yard, and every bird on the planet has a limit to the burden at some point.

I had mites get going with my birds this year. I handle them semi regularly. If I find one bird with one mite or louse, I treat them all. For a reason, I was not handling them as frequently, and when I did I had an actual start to an infestation. It was interesting to note that in a given pen, that a single bird would have more than the rest. I did mark those birds. I did not cull them but I will know when I set my pens up. If all else is equal, I may not use them.

There is value in not breeding the most vulnerable birds. These birds can be considered less fit. It is difficult to know why they succumbed and others did not.

That's what they called it, "breeding for resistance to coccidiosis", George. I don't know why someone would let so many chicks die from something that is very treatable and they do develop immunity over time as they mature anyway, generally. I agree it's more like worms or mites/lice. You treat for them because they can all kill a bird unnecessarily, or add to issues the bird has already, or they can even be present in larger quantities because the bird already has lowered immunity from something else.

 

[gjensen]

Going the natural route has nothing to do with foregoing medicating animals --- it just means you need to learn what the natural medications are, and use them instead of artificial ones. Nobody should 'go the natural route' if they don't understand at least something about natural disease control in wild animals and how they can replicate this in domesticity.

Unfortunately many people think going naturally or organically means not treating.

If you don't know how to treat naturally, do it artificially/conventionally, and don't feel bad about it. We do what we have to do with what we know and what we can access.

In my earlier years I used conventional wormers and so forth until I knew how to replace them naturally. By the time I got chooks, I knew how to control things well enough to not use anything artificial/conventional on them. Raw garlic works 100% against cocci, I've never had a single case of coccidiosis. Some might think 'well, you probably did, but misidentified it' --- but I didn't have disease deaths in chicks, nor sick chicks, ever; that is, until I got MD and Leukosis in some family lines, when I lost a few to that.

Best wishes.

I have not had a problem with cocci since I was a kid and did not know any better. That does not mean anything at all. I do not use medicated feed, or supplements. I do try to manage the young birds accordingly and diligently.

If something natural is potent enough to kill Northern Fowl Mites, it is no less toxic than seven dust. That is what I mean about being concerned with whether or not it is effective. I would rather use the seven dust than allow the mite infestation to grow.

Nicotine is organic and natural, but it dos not make it safe. Whether or not a compound is organic or synthetic does not speak for it's safety.

Garlic will not effectively treat a cocci infestation. I hope someone that has one does not try to save their chicks with garlic.

I am all for natural and or organic. I emphasize growing native fruits on my property in order to avoid the chemicals. I hate spraying. I just will not let my judgment be bound by an ideology.

I will use an example. I had a woman criticize the idea of me dusting my birds. She explained that seven dust would kill bees. Certainly it will, but I have never seen any bees under my bird's feathers. When I said that, she stated that it was bad for the birds. I asked her if the mites were good for my birds. She did not have a reply, but I was waiting for her to defend the mites. I did not bother explaining to her that I did not spray my fruit trees or shrubs or point out all my bee boxes for NATIVE bees, or flowers that we have planted specifically for them and the butterflies. It would not have done any good. The seven dust bothered her. It was an emotional reaction.

A lot of it is whether or not something is good or bad is if it is used responsibly, and whether or not it is effective.

On the other hand, I have learned and tried many herbal treatments for myself. I take licorice root instead of a steroid that was prescribed to me. For different reasons I feel it is safer. But it is not safe when used blindly. It depletes potassium so I have to check my blood potassium levels semi regularly in order to avoid more heart rhythm problems. It is natural but that does not make it safe. It is safer than my alternative, but it is not as effective. If what I took it for was worse, I would have to take the steroid.

I agree with the notion to be as natural as possible, realizing that there is nothing natural about confining birds to a couple acres for years consecutively either. Concerning human medicine I wish their was more economic incentive to more studies into herbal alternatives. That and a better standard of uniform quality for those alternatives. I asked a Mayo doctor about one in particular, and his response that studies have shown it's benefits. However, he could not professionally recommend it because their was no standard for quality. I take it anyways.

So the summary of it all is that we can drift towards extremes. There are a lot of management options, both good and bad. The best we can do is make our own best decisions. If there is a better, safer, effective method that is "more natural" it certainly should be used. The end result is what matters.

I believe that non pharma methods are usually better whether organic or synthetic.

 

[rancher hicks]

About the 20 week old, Tim. I dunno. I had one Delaware pullet die suddenly of a heart condition at about 24 weeks old. She was about to come in to lay and I guess it was too much strain on her heart. It pretty much imploded, poor thing. Coming into lay can bring underlying issues to the surface.

These girls should be pretty close to laying. It's sad cuz she's a nice looking girl. I work toward hardy birds. Not wanting to coddle them but I do give them a chance.

 

[gjensen]

That's what they called it, "breeding for resistance to coccidiosis", George. I don't know why someone would let so many chicks die from something that is very treatable and they do develop immunity over time as they mature anyway, generally. I agree it's more like worms or mites/lice. You treat for them because they can all kill a bird unnecessarily, or add to issues the bird has already, or they can even be present in larger quantities because the bird already has lowered immunity from something else.

I think the largest fault in their logic is that the birds are not capable of resisting the exposure, but they get to a point where they can tolerate a level of exposure. The population can explode in a brooder box fast. It is warm, moist, etc. It is easy for a population to expand past a bird's ability to TOLERATE. LOL.

Letting them die from cocci is like letting them die from mites. It just does not make sense. Mites will ruin a bird' ability to resist pathogens. Cocci can do permanent damage. It is not uncommon for a bird that gets a bad case of cocci, recovering, but never reaching the same level of condition that it had before.

I agree.