MS or Arthritis?

[Eddie12109]

Hi all!

I have a 9 year old black sexlink, Eddie, who I have thought had arthritis. I have taken her to two vets who never questioned whether it was arthritis or not, they just assumed based on looking at it, and prescribed Metacam.

After reading about MS, I am a little suspicious that Eddie may have this.

Two years ago Eddie got a heat stroke and then flystrike, when she got the heat stroke, she managed to get her head stuck between two dog cage bars and was stuck for a few minutes. After that, her toes wouldn't work that well. I think that that when her head got stuck that it caused nerve damage and now her toes are completely useless. I will pinch them and she won't feel a thing, she sometimes walks on them by accident and doesn't notice.

Gradually she started to have trouble moving and I found that her hocks were very swollen. It eventually got to the point where she prefers not to move and if she does, she needs to rapidly flap her wings to get momentum. I have been dealing with this by giving Metacam, turmeric, shigru, and doing leg stretches and she sits in her therapy chair for 3 hours throughout the day.

In December, she developed a breast blister and in late December or early January it looked like it was going to come off and I ended up getting hard pus out of it. After that, for arthritis, I took her to her first vet visit and she looked at the breast blister and said it should be healing and gone and she was not concerned. Well a few days later the scab came off and so did a flood of clear, slightly yellow, liquid pus came out. It was a lot, I cleaned it and thought that it could have been saline solution since I used that the first time it opened. Two weeks later and it happens again. Two weeks after that it happens again, a lot of liquid pus with slight yellow to it. I ended up changing vets and took her to one who didn't have answers and only suggested we test her for a LOT of money. She did get bloodwork which everything came back fine, I am still waiting for a copy to know what they tested. After the vet visit it opened again and lots of pus came out, this time is smelled. I can't compare it to anything besides it was foul. I flushed it out with betadine for the last three times and have cleaned it and used neosporin on her twice a day since the first time it happened.

So over the past three months her breast blister has opened 4 times, 3 times being with liquid pus. In order to help, I padded her therapy chair and her bed, although I am having trouble not overheating her with her bed. And I also have padding under her whenever she is just sitting.

For a while now she has dealt with heat related issues. She takes the heat horribly, maybe because she can't dustbathe due to her arthritis, but either way, even when she has ceiling fans on, she is panting hard. I am in Florida so it's pretty hot.

Lastly, what seems like overnight, she has had two growths on her hock. One I was able to take a picture of, it is very hard and it was red, now it has mellowed out a little. Could it be possible that arthritis will grow in such a weird way? When I upload the pictures I will say which one it is.

I want to get opinions before I consider testing, and I most likely won't test since I only have two hens left.
What I want to know is if the description and pictures suggest one or another

If her new prescription of Metacam, that is a higher dose, could have somehow caused her hocks to grow in size, because that has never happened as dramatically

Since this is contagious, if it could cause ascites as a symptom. Not for Eddie but five of my hens died from ascites in the past two years.

And if I should try anything else to help relieve pain

And as a last note, it seems like Dev, my 7-8 year old hen, has developed ascites. She is my last one with Eddie and I can't stand to think she will have to deal with ascites.

@azygous @Wyorp Rock @Eggcessive @casportpony @speckledhen @TwoCrows


The first picture is just of her hocks. The second shows the weird growth that happened overnight. It is in the upper left side.

The third picture shows her feet from the top

The fourth shows these weird bubbles that happen on her scales on her hocks. I tried to zoom in as much as possible. If you look at one of the scales, you can see these holes in it that looks pretty unusual. She has had this for a while though.

The fifth shows her breast blister scab today.

 

[Eddie12109]

One thing I forgot to mention is that she has a fat pad over her breast blister. It has gotten thick, probably a little over 1 centimeter in width and covers her whole keel bone. This has occurred probably for a while but started to get bigger when her breast blister happened. Even when I 'drain' her breast blister she still has the same sized fat pad. I think that it could be something similar to a human foot blister, it fills up with pus to protect her keel bone since she is constantly laying down.

I asked the vet and although he said he can't tell me unless we test, the nurse said it seems to be a fat pad and it has formed to protect her keel bone. She is actually underweight, I haven't noticed due to the fat pad being there so now I am giving Kaytees baby bird food.

I think that is it....

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Poor thing, she's still hanging in there isn't she.

If you lose her, having some testing done to find out if MS show up is the best way to know for sure.

The breast blister and possibly some of the swelling in her joints is from being confined in a sling for so long. Have you considered her quality of life and maybe it's time to let her go?

 

[TwoCrows]

Sorry your girl is hurting!

I had MS in my flock many years ago and from your description and pictures here, I personally don't think she has MS. MS generally attacks young birds only, rarely if ever is it seen in older birds. With MS the synovial fluid continously leaks out of infected toe and or hock joints and drains into the legs and foot pads, unless you drain it. I don't see any evidence of that. Her toes look a little atrophied to me, which leads me to believe she has arthritis.

At her age arthritis is going to be extremely common. Some birds can still hobble around with arthritis, however many will spend their entire day just sitting. This constant sitting causes breast blisters. I have found Vetercyn heals the sores fairly well. Make sure she is sleeping on a soft bedding at night. I take it she no longer roost at night? (My arthritic hens started sleeping on the floor around 8 yrs of age). Grass hay like Bermuda is good to use because it allows some air movement on her breast, it breathes and will keep her cooler. Wood shavings and straw build up heat and will cause more blisters.

I would also get her on a good vitamin regime, just as in older folks, old birds have a hard time absorbing nutrients. She will feel better if she is as healthy as possible. And make sure her waterer is right next to her at all times. Old arthritic birds will go thirsty rather than get up and go find water.

Also, all my old hens started to refuse layer feed around 8 yrs as well, it is too high in protein and calcium. They got extremely thin and would rather had died than ate layer feed. They made it this long, as long as they were eating, it was good enough for me! You might offer a formulated parakeet diet instead, or some sort of other diet if she is not eating. Something is better than nothing. My birds did quite well on a diet such as this, low in calcium and only 12%protein.

Good luck with her! I recently lost an old hen at the age of 12! Senior birds are very special.

 

[Eddie12109]

Poor thing, she's still hanging in there isn't she.

If you lose her, having some testing done to find out if MS show up is the best way to know for sure.

The breast blister and possibly some of the swelling in her joints is from being confined in a sling for so long. Have you considered her quality of life and maybe it's time to let her go?

What do you mean being confined to a sling? Her therapy chair?

I have padding on it so I don't think it would be the main cause

 

[Eddie12109]

At her age arthritis is going to be extremely common. Some birds can still hobble around with arthritis, however many will spend their entire day just sitting. This constant sitting causes breast blisters. I have found Vetercyn heals the sores fairly well. Make sure she is sleeping on a soft bedding at night. I take it she no longer roost at night? (My arthritic hens started sleeping on the floor around 8 yrs of age). Grass hay like Bermuda is good to use because it allows some air movement on her breast, it breathes and will keep her cooler. Wood shavings and straw build up heat and will cause more blisters.

She sleeps in a cage in my garage, she has foam padding and vinyl as a cover but it is overheating her. Last night I put an ice pack under her and that helped a lot, even when it wasn't cold anymore.
I never heard of that hay, I will look into it.

I would also get her on a good vitamin regime, just as in older folks, old birds have a hard time absorbing nutrients. She will feel better if she is as healthy as possible. And make sure her waterer is right next to her at all times. Old arthritic birds will go thirsty rather than get up and go find water.

I do try to keep up vitamins although I have taken a break from giving them so often. I will attach a picture I took of her layout, she sits on foam and has her food and water right in front of her

Also, all my old hens started to refuse layer feed around 8 yrs as well, it is too high in protein and calcium. They got extremely thin and would rather had died than ate layer feed. They made it this long, as long as they were eating, it was good enough for me! You might offer a formulated parakeet diet instead, or some sort of other diet if she is not eating. Something is better than nothing. My birds did quite well on a diet such as this, low in calcium and only 12%protein.

Good luck with her! I recently lost an old hen at the age of 12! Senior birds are very special.

Eddie is fine with her food, I don't know why she is so skinny because I know she eats a lot. She is on a grower diet. That is very interesting... is a grower feed too much for her?

 

[Eddie12109]

So a little update, the breast blister doesn't open with liquid until two weeks. Well her breast blister opened only three days ago and, although it hasn't fully healed, it let out a ton of fluid again tonight. Same smell and same color.

I am assuming since it is taking her wound to heal so long that the fluid just came out? I am switching between vetericyn and neosporin.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Yes, her therapy chair. She's mostly sitting all day which makes it harder for a breast blister to heal.

 

[Eddie12109]

Oh ok, I tried to help with padding but I don’t really know another way around it. She can’t stand up on her own... do you have any ideas to help with that issue?

 

[TwoCrows]

Oh ok, I tried to help with padding but I don’t really know another way around it. She can’t stand up on her own... do you have any ideas to help with that issue?

Can she stand at all on her own? If not, it's possible at her age she has had a stroke. Does this sling allow her to try and stand? If she isn't responding to this sling after a few weeks, I would quit using it.